Lee: Well, hi, Rachel, welcome to the Coach with Clarity podcast. I'm so excited to have you on.
Rachel: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Lee: Let's kick things off by learning a little bit more about you and the work you do in the world.
Rachel: Sure. My name is Rachel Duncan, and I'm based in Denver, Colorado. Currently, I'm a full time mom, I have two little boys, two years old and six years old. So obviously, with the circumstances of COVID, that is definitely my main thing. But it's also been my main thing for the last six years, and I have a master's in clinical mental health counseling from Antioch University in Seattle, I was on the art therapy track. So I can't yet call myself an art therapist because I don't have enough hours, but I have the credential as an art therapist. And since my family and I moved back to Denver, this is my hometown, and I just finished grad school, and then we moved back here, it seemed like a good point to do that. We also moved my mom in with us. So all these sort of life things happened that pushed my career out a bit, as you know, happens a lot to women. So we moved my mom in with me, and it was a major project. And then I…let's see, how did it all go? And then a dear family friend asked me to help him start a nonprofit. This was touching back into my pre grad school days of being a business manager. So at the time, it's like, oh, everything's in flux, sure, I'll just do this for, I think it was like a six month kind of thing. And you know, he kind of let me name my price. So it just seemed like, “okay, let's do this and then I'll get on to therapy later”. So I helped him launch the nonprofit and I learned a ton. Then he started telling all of his friends that I help people start nonprofits, and to make a long story short, like since then, I have sort of just picked up these little gigs. I've also done some gig work as a therapist, mostly like running groups at nursing homes and some nonprofits around town. I have not done like, agency work, you know, except for my internship. So after my oldest child was going to kindergarten and I had the little guy but I had childcare, I was like, “okay, now it's time for me to start my nonprofit”. This was February of this year, right before the world changed, right? Little did we know and I had so much energy and kind of all this sort of pent up enthusiasm to get my nonprofit – I’m sorry, I keep saying nonprofit – my business started, my private practice, and I signed up for Allison Puryear’s Abundance Practice
, and that's how I met you.
Lee: Oh yes, I love Allison. She is wonderful.
Rachel: It's just such a great resource, and so I just started plowing through that and of course, you know, March 15, that all had to close down. So for the first few months, I put private practice on the side, obviously that's just not time right now we'll come back to it, you know, and just was homeschooling and doing all of that. But as the summer wore on, it just made me sadder and sadder because I was so excited about my private practice. In the meantime, the reason I brought up this nonprofit stuff, is I keep getting calls to do that, and I've actually worked on two, helping two small nonprofits launch, this summer and I love doing that as well. And I think during this time where it's such a pivot point, you know, and reflecting, I love business, and I love therapy. And when I listen to your talk on Allison's course, about like, the differences between coaching and therapy, I did kind of have an aha moment where I was like, “oh, that's kind of the combination or like the intersection of my skills and interest”. I mean, when I wanted to make a career change, it was a toss up between counseling and business school. So that's always been my leaning, like, my friends call me with, like, when they need bookkeeping advice. Like I love sort of the nuts and bolts of business. So where we are now, I have a website up and I have availability to see clients online. I haven't worked very hard on it, because I've been doing this nonprofit launching stuff. It's just interesting that every time I'm like, “Oh, I do therapy, I do therapy”, but then I'm like, doing all this business management stuff.
Lee: Almost like you're getting pulled into that world, the more you try to kind of enter the therapy world.
Rachel: Exactly. It's like, that's where my flow is.
Lee: And that's where the energy seems to be as well.
Rachel: Exactly. So I'm like, okay, I need to step back and take stock of this because my referral sources have been that one family friend, and my accountant, I happen to mention, I don't even tell anybody, and these people call me, and I really love doing it. I really love doing it. I think also part of it is like, “Oh, God, I went to grad school”, like, you know, “I should be a therapist, because I have this degree”. So I'm at the very baby stages of even thinking about this, so that's how I was hoping you could help me.
Lee: Yes. Oh, my gosh, this is a fun place to be. I'm really excited. So let me ask you, then, what would be an ideal outcome for you at the conclusion of our call today?
Rachel: I think something like, kind of a general direction or like, you know, I'd love to have, like a reading list. Like, okay, you know, have a plug into this sink into this a little bit. I feel like I need to do a bit of research. So kind of like a direction towards research, and like, maybe just a couple small action items. Because I will say, also, I have a very limited time.
Lee: Yes. Okay, and we want to honor that because with being a busy mom, with two littles at home coupled with everything else that's going on, yes, this should not add to your workload, it should enhance it.
Rachel: But it does give me life, and I do have flexibility on weekends and stuff and evenings, and that's why I like this work. A lot of it can be done at any time, and at this season of my life, that makes a lot more sense.
Lee: Yes. So it sounds like at the end of our session today, if you are able to walk away with kind of a rough action plan, that certainly includes some prep time, some research, but also some rubber meets road action steps that you can take, this will feel like a successful call for you.
Rachel: Yes, and I think also underlining all of this, which I know you'll give, is just the validation. Giving me permission to maybe step away from therapy. I think that is probably my biggest – it gets me emotional, actually – I think that's one of my sticking points is a, “that's okay for me to walk away from that right now”.
Lee: And it's understandable that this would be emotional for you because you have invested so much time and energy and money into this particular career. And so to even think about moving in a different direction really brings all of that into question, and am I making the right decision? What does it say about me that I'm moving on to something else? And having all of those emotions comes up actually makes quite a lot of sense.
Rachel: Exactly. Thank you.
Lee: You're welcome, and I just want to share too, that you're not alone in that. It's something I experienced, too, when I first kind of entered into the coaching profession. In a way I almost wondered if I was betraying the field of social work. Am I betraying this profession that got me started? What does it say about me that I'm moving on? And so I really struggled with that guilt as well. And ultimately, where I've landed is that I would not be able to do any of the work I'm doing today had I not gotten my start as a social worker and had I not gotten all of that experience. And now my coaching is so informed by my background as a social worker, and as an Acceptance and Commitment Therapy oriented professional, it's seamless. And so it doesn't feel like I've abandoned a profession. It's really more about growing into something else, and I think maybe that's what I would kind of suggest to you is how can we leverage the training and experience and skills that you bring as a clinical mental health counselor into this field of nonprofit coaching and consultation, because it's very relevant and there's a room for that there. So before we even explore that question, let me just check in and ask you how it feels when we look at this work through that lens.
Rachel: I think that sounds perfect. I think it's exactly what I need to hear. I think there's a wisdom in me that's saying that same thing, and I'm just having this like internal struggle about it. So it's really validating some things I'm already feeling.
Lee: I'm glad to hear that. I personally think that the small business world, the entrepreneurial world, and the nonprofit world could really benefit from more therapists being in it because we do bring such a unique perspective. And we have the ability to look at relationships with a different lens, and relationships are at the heart of business. So really, what you're doing is supporting an entirely different profession with the skills that you bring as a counselor. So you are still showing up as a counselor, it's just maybe looking a little different than what you originally planned.
Rachel: Mmhmm, and I will say also, I love writing, and it brings a bit of that in for me, that I get to do. So it kind of integrates some other skills. And I also love like, logistics and stuff like that. It's sort of my old career, and it's just still there, and people seem to really value that I can do that. So that's sort of the other strength they bring into it.
Lee: That's fantastic. I just got this very strong mental image of you weaving a tapestry, and each thread represents part of your background. So you have a thread that represents the logistics, you have a thread that represents writing, you have a thread that represents your counseling background, all of these beautiful fibers that make up who you are. And now you're at the point of figuring out how they work together. What palette do they create? What do I want to weave? What do I want this end product to look like? And that's the beauty of this is that you don't have to weave with just one thread, you can integrate them all and really create a business and a vocation that reflects you and serves you. And this is so exciting to be at this stage of the game.
Rachel: Well, your metaphor is perfect for my art therapy training Lee. That’s exactly it!
Lee: So glad to hear that, all right. So before we get into kind of creating a plan, I'd love to spend a little bit of time exploring with you what your ideal business would look like. So I know that we've talked about the nonprofit sector and consultation. And I'm just curious, when all is said and done, what kind of work would you most love to be doing?
Rachel: It's a little hard to say, because I see it evolving. And I don't really have an endpoint in mind.
Lee: Maybe it would be helpful to imagine three years from now. So let's say it's 2023. COVID, thankfully, is a thing of the past. We are fully adjusted to whatever our new normal looks like, and over the last three years, you have been able to really build a business that you love, and that supports you. You enjoy the work you do. It's fulfilling, you love your clients. So everything that you've wanted to create for yourself over the last three years, you've been able to do that and more. So what does that look like?
Rachel: It's a nice timeline, because my youngest would maybe be starting kindergarten then. So that's kind of a, you know, I'd have two school aged children, which I feel like is a major shift. Yeah, just timewise and their development and stuff. So yeah, gosh, I could picture having a small company, maybe having two or three employees, that I'm just totally improving here because I haven't even thought about this. Where we would be like a coaching service for people wanting to start up anything. It could be nonprofit or business. Be very feminist based. I feel like a lot of what I end up doing is trying to dismantle the patriarchy, which we can talk about later.
Lee: I would love to talk about that later.
Rachel: Let's get a coffee, woohoo. I find that people are really intimidated, and I think that's the patriarchy intimidating women, particularly, to start business. So I could see like a small, I don't know kind of firm, a consulting firm, you know doing coaching, connecting new businesses with resources, guiding them through startup phase, connecting them with admin assistance. I don't know, I could kind of see like a guide point for entrepreneurs or new businesses.
Lee: Yes, yes, the word that keeps coming up for me as you're talking is like, you're this incubator, you take these baby companies with these initial ideas, and you help them start their life in a really strong, supported way. And what I'm hearing is that you bring in such a strong, diverse background, in terms of your skills that you can meet them, where they're at from the business side, but also from the emotional side as well. So your background in business administration, coupled with your experience as a counselor, and as an art therapist, too, you can really connect with them on many levels.
Rachel: Yes, yeah, I think, so I think people who kind of want that personal connection, and even like these, these recent projects I've done over the summer, I've been very honest, “hey, look, you know, I'm a full time mom, blah, blah, blah”. And these recent clients are like, I love that. I love that I know where you're at. I love that you're honest about what you can and can't do. And like, the more I bring an honesty where I'm coming from, the more it just feels very personal and not an intimidating business thing.
Lee: Yes, if I had a highlighter, I would be circling what you just said, because I think it's so important to realize that when you lean into who you are, the things that make you you, whether it's your strengths, your values, what's going on in your life, whatever that is, that's what sets you apart. And that's what's connecting you to your people. So we never have to apologize for being a mom, or being a feminist, or wanting to dismantle the patriarchy. In fact, the more we lean into that, the more we are going to naturally gravitate towards the people who view that as being important and who want to support that as well.
Rachel: Yeah. Exactly. And I also, I will say, Lee, that, you know, I also see that this could just be a season for me right now. And I don't know, maybe that's me like not wanting to overcommit. I am a bit of a dabbler. So I want to just be honest about that, like, I kind of get into one thing really heavily, and then I pull out into another thing really heavily and pull out. So I don't know, I just wanted to say that. I know myself.
Lee: No, I appreciate that and actually, I think that goes back to maybe what you said at the beginning, when I asked you kind of what your ideal business looks like, that was difficult because you saw it evolving and changing over time. And I think that is so important to know about yourself so that as we build this business, there's room for growth and flexibility and change and evolution, because that's what's going to keep you interested and invested. So knowing that you're someone who likes to kind of change things up and try new things and dabble. Let's ensure that your business is structured in such a way where that can be a part of it. So it supports that desire to try new things and go on new adventures, and it doesn't feel like something that limits you.
Rachel: Mmhmm. Thank you.
Lee: So I'm really interested, I want to go back to one thing you said at the very beginning about what you would want part of the outcome to be, which is knowing what to research. I'm just curious about that. So what are the things that you feel like you don't know that you need to know or that you need to find out?
Rachel: I would like to just pick up a book on coaching. You know, this whole coaching idea is kind of new to me. I have gone to a coach, actually when I was at this point of wanting to go to grad school, but it wasn't sure which way, I did see a coach for that. So I'd like to just kind of, at the surface, do a bit of reading about that. I think it's going to speak to me because my favorite elements of grad school were career counseling and brief therapies. It was all this stuff that had more of that coaching edge was the stuff I really loved. So I think I'm kind of already there a bit.
Lee: Yes, and what I might reflect back is, and I'm a lifelong learner, I'm always reading books in the field of coaching, and so forth. So I love that and what I'm finding is that I'm at the stage now where they are validating what I already know. And I suspect that you may find that too and that is okay. And so it may be about learning a different way of phrasing something or a different way of viewing the coaching process and less about, “I don't know what I'm doing and therefore I need to research”. And I think when we enter it with that energy of, “I just want to see how this person approaches a topic I'm already familiar with”, then we really honor the wisdom and expertise that we're already bringing into the situation. So we're not coming from a scarcity approach like I need more because I'm not enough the way I am, but this is more about enhancing what I'm already doing.
Rachel: Yes, that speaks to me. Okay, that totally speaks to me. Yeah, that part of me is like, “oh, yeah, that's totally it”.
Lee: Okay, excellent. So with that in mind, then there are so many wonderful books out there on coaching, and some of my favorites include, there's a book called Becoming a Life Coach for Therapists
, it's like a workbook. I believe the author's name is David Skibbins. It's a wonderful resource, I highly recommend it. It's one of the first ones I read when I first started my coaching journey, and I recommend it to just about any mental health professional, but also, I think just anyone who's interested in coaching, that's a great resource as well. I also always recommend the work of Lynn Grodzki. Lynn is an LCSW and a Master Certified Coach, so she understands both worlds. She's got books specifically on coaching, one is called The Business and Practice of Coaching
. I love that book. It's a little old, I wish she would come out with an updated version, because there's some elements in there that I think could be revised, but yet the bones of it are really solid. For my mental health friends who maybe aren't interested in transitioning into coaching, but want to incorporate coaching approaches in their therapeutic work, Lynn's most recent book Therapy with a Coaching Edge
is a fantastic resource as well. And then at the risk of being overly self promotional, I'm a big fan of my book, too, which is you ACT on Your Business
, but it really is about taking principles of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and applying them in an entrepreneurial space. And it really does take more of a coaching approach to that kind of work than therapeutics. So I'll just add that one to the list as well.
Rachel: I appreciate that, I'm a big fan of your work so I would, I would love to check that out. So I just like to throw another thread into this tapestry. I've had several people tell me independently that I would make a great financial therapist.
Lee: Yes, let's talk about that.
Rachel: So, and I know it's kind of a newer field, and I've sort of poked around the website and that's about it. But it rings with me, and I think it integrates with this business stuff. I love talking about money.
Lee: Excellent. Excellent.
Rachel: A friend of mine just told me she started budgeting, and I almost cried with happiness. I don't know why, it just, whether it's just personal finance, or in your business, or increasing profitability, I actually get really emotional about it. And so I've been thinking about like, well, maybe in this downtime, kind of chucking away at that, you know, either credential or just reading up on that. Because obviously, that would integrate coaching a lot, too. That's kind of a direction.
Lee: Yes. I'd love to hear more about why it brings up so much emotion for you. Why does this feel so passionate?
Rachel: I think that how we handle our money actually reflects our mental state. And I think it's reciprocal, like our money reflects our mental state. And then we can also influence our mental state by how we handle our money, because it actually has to do with value. It's all about value. And I think, again, back to my feminist stuff – as women, we're often taught that our money isn't really ours, and that our money is meant to be spent. And I see a lot of really destructive messaging that people get about money. And not just women, I don't mean to say just women, I would love to work with men also. I feel like when I'm in control of my finances, my whole life is better. So like, if I'm looking at, how can I help people improve their lives? I actually think the financial stuff, it's like, it's nuts and bolts, but it's also very emotional, and I love that combination. It's like the lessons that we learned from our family about money. You know, class issues, social pressure, all of that stuff, generational concepts of money, I just find it really interesting. And you know, I've done a lot of my own work around money, and my husband and I love it. Like, he's like, let's just talk about money.
Lee: I love this. I think this is another example of how comfortable you are in these spaces of overlap. The logistics of money, coupled with the emotionality of money, that overlap is your sweet spot.
Lee: And I think that's something that really makes you unique, because some people are very good with the numbers and the data and the planning, and they've got that side, but as soon as we start getting into discomfort or shame around money, that's when they shut down. Other people are very comfortable exploring some of the unwanted emotions around money, but when it comes to, “okay, what do I actually do now?”, that's where they get stuck. You, my friend, are right in the middle, like you can do both, and you can do both very well. And so whether you're doing that on a personal level, helping people with their personal finances, whether you're working with small business owners and entrepreneurs from a business perspective, whether you're working with nonprofits, I mean I think this is the thread that weaves it all together, is that you are very comfortable standing at the intersection of the emotions and the logistics of money, and you can support people through that.
Rachel: Yes, I need to write that down. That's good. Yes, that's my tagline. And maybe I don't need to actually have like the financial therapy credential but I do think it's a really interesting field. That's kind of where I'm toying with. I've heard you say in other podcasts that like being a student, and going through a program is really important to you. And I'm kind of like that, too. I want to be like, in a program.
Lee: Yes, and I think for you now, it's a question of, “Okay, well, do I need a official certification program? Or do I want to create my own self study program”, and again, it may not be either, or it may be more of a timeline thing. So right now, you're doing your own work, you're listening to podcasts, and you're reading books. Or maybe you're exploring some coaching certifications, or some financial therapy certifications, there's options out there. And so talking about research, that's probably your next step is to kind of look at the general coaching pieces, look at some of the coaching financial therapy pieces, and then see where the energy pulls you. Because as we noticed, very early on, the things that feel good to you are coming organically, you know, word of mouth referrals and doing this kind of work. And there's a sense of ease and flow there. And I think if we can look for that ease and flow, as you're researching, and as you're creating your next steps, then that's going to guide you in a way that's going to feel really aligned and really powerful.
Rachel: Yes, it always is, isn't it? Yeah, that's what I would say to myself, if I were my own coach.
Lee: You know, and I think too, this is also where exploring the difference between something being easy and something being filled with ease, is different. Because when you are working towards a goal, when you're building a business, whatever that is, there's going to be hard work involved, there's going to be time and energy that you dedicate to it. So it may not feel easy but if that underlying work is filled with a sense of flow, and ease, and fulfillment, and satisfaction, that's what we're really looking for. So it's not about it necessarily being easy, but it is about the work promoting a sense of ease, and almost inevitability, like this was just meant to happen. And that's really what I'm sensing from you around this work that seems to blend coaching, with consultation, with maybe a little bit of done for you services kind of all wrapped up in one. And as your business grows, and as you bring people on, you know, three, five years from now, you're going to have an even better idea of what you want your role to be within your business. Are you the CEO who's overseeing everything? Are you a frontline worker who's connecting with your clients? There's no right or wrong way to do this, and that's the piece that's going to evolve over time. And that I think is going to hold your interest because you can explore different roles that you're taking within your own business.
Lee: Let me check back in with you. How's everything sitting with you? And what are your key takeaways from our conversation so far?
Rachel: Gosh, it feels really, right. I mean, you're definitely reflecting back to me, those quiet voices. I'd like to put together a self study program. And I'm thinking about, you know, how I can work in some accountability around that? I do really well with a deadline, and all of this, yeah, it just feels like this is totally where I am. And I'm thinking back to even like, as a kid. I was always running businesses out of the house. I started a restaurant, I charged my parents to serve them their own food, which is pretty funny, but I loved it. Like I made up a little receipt, you know, and I loved making my own little receipts because it wasn't really about the restaurant. It was about, it was a business.
Rachel: Sometimes you look back and you see this golden thread that has gone through everything. But then you know, going through grad school, oh, well, you come out a counselor, you know, and that's kind of it, and I always had this itch that that wasn't quite it for me. So this really validates, I think, you know, some of my deep strengths and that this is like a great time for me to really get into that and start putting it forward. Because every time I put a little bit of this forward, like mentioning it to one person, I get back like ten times, as opposed to my therapy website, which I've had up for eight months and I've had like two serious inquiries. It's like, okay, there's something going on here.
Lee: Yes, yes, the energy is definitely directing you towards where it wants you to go, and the image that you mentioned, that golden thread that you know you can identify as early as childhood being the entrepreneur in your own family. That golden thread is part of this tapestry, right? That's going to be the highlight thread. The fact that the therapy piece didn't necessarily hold that same energy doesn't mean it's not important or that it's not valuable, but maybe that's going to be the secondary thread, as opposed to the primary one in your tapestry. And so now it's about, how do we weave that in? How do we leverage that thread, those skills, in order to enhance the overall picture? So we're not getting rid of it or moving away from it, it becomes the shadow to really highlight the main feature.
Rachel: I love a metaphor.
Lee: All right, so let's kind of bring this to a close by talking about this plan and your next steps. Okay, what is this plan shaping up to be? And how do you want to take action on it?
Rachel: My first thought? I want to take down my therapy site. Feels huge to me, it's obviously like the click of a button, I think I need to take it down because it's causing this internal struggle for me. So that's obviously it would take like three seconds but that's a big one, for me.
Lee: It is a big one. It is a big one. How do you feel about doing that?
Rachel: A little sad, but relieved? Like actually truly relieved? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel: So that feels like just a shift in direction, that would be important for me.
Lee: And maybe, if I might make a suggestion, as you're taking it down, even though it's a quick three second process, it's a deeper, more meaningful process, too. And so maybe we bring a sense of gratitude to it. We literally thank the website, for providing you with the knowledge and the insight that has brought you to this moment today, because it's served its purpose, it has served you really powerfully. And now you can release it.
Lee: How does that feel?
Rachel: Yeah, I may even make some art around it.
Lee: I love that.
Rachel: Because actually, I did put some of my artwork on it, which obviously still exists, you know. And yeah, I think a little ceremony around that would be really powerful.
Lee: Excellent. Well, that feels like a super powerful first step, creating a ritual to release and take down the therapy website. And then, in a way, that's another step of giving yourself permission to step into this new exploration of what this kind of business and financial coaching consulting hybrid business wants to be.
Rachel: Yeah, I think it opens up a lot of space, actually. And I think the next step is maybe getting two books, like one on the just pure coaching side and one on the financial therapy side, and start pawing through them. Maybe I'll ask my husband to help me with some accountability, you know, get a little bit of a study, like you said, like a self study schedule together and just start picking away at that.
Lee: I love that. I love that. If you are not already familiar with the work of Bari Tessler, she is a social worker and financial therapist, she wrote a book called The Art of Money
, and that might be something just to kind of keep in mind. It's more, I think, targeted towards individuals who want to shift to their money mindset, not so much people who want to become financial therapists, but I think her path might be one for you to explore as well.
Rachel: You know, I used to follow her. I think she's even based in Colorado.
Lee: I think she is, yeah.
Rachel: Yeah, I will check that out. Yeah, I think plugging away at this. And, you know, the other thing that just popped into my head was my recent clients, I've helped, kind of circling back with them and seeing how they're doing. And, you know, even asking if, I don't know, kind of if they want a guinea pig with me a little bit. I don't know, maybe after I read a little bit, but you know, say, “hey, guys, you know, I'm looking at sort of shifting my services into more coach based thing, would you be interested in that kind of relationship with me going forward?”, because I already have the relationship with them.
Lee: I love that. I think when you're at the point where you have a very general framework of what you would want to offer, and maybe that looks like, you know, a three month coaching relationship. And then when you share it with excitement with people, especially people you've already worked with, and you've already served, they're going to feel excited too. And they're going to want to be a part of that.
Lee: I love that idea.
Rachel: Yeah. Okay.
Lee: Excellent. All right. So it sounds like we have a pretty strong plan emerging.
Rachel: I think so. Yep.
Lee: Part one is around the therapy website, part two is about the research and accountability component, and then part three is about creating and sharing an offer with people who are already in your network.
Lee: Wow. Look at what we’ve accomplished in 35 minutes! Amazing.
Rachel: It shows like, I don't know what I'm going to talk about, but clearly I actually did.
Lee: Yes. Yes, and your intuition knew too. And I think that's the other thing is you were really willing to let that inner voice have a seat at the table and we're never on the wrong path when we're honoring our intuition, that's for sure.
Rachel: Boy, is that true.
Lee: Rachel, I'm so grateful to have spent this time with you today, and I am curious if there's someone out there who's listening who wants to connect with you, what's the best way for them to find you?
Rachel: Well, that's funny, since I just said, I'm going to wipe it.. Well, okay, I'm pretty sure it's going to be RachelDuncan.online, will be my new home. So that's, I'll say currently, it's RachelDuncanTherapy.com
, but it's, I think it's going to be RachelDuncan.online. So that would probably be where they can find me on Instagram @RachelDuncanTherapy
. Probably, if you just Google Rachel Duncan, you'll find me.
Lee: Excellent. We'll make sure to have links in the show notes as well. And Rachel, I just want to thank you again for coming on the show today.
Rachel: Thanks so much for having me that was really meaningful.
Lee: I'm so glad.