Lee: Well, hi there. Jill, thank you so much for coming on the Coach with Clarity podcast. I'm really glad you're here.
Jill: Hi, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Lee: Excellent. Well, let's get things off to a great start. I'd love to know a little bit more about you and the work you do for the world.
Jill: I am a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. I'm also a certified sex addiction therapist and supervisor. I have been in private practice for almost 20 years. And I'm gonna apologize for my allergies, my throat is getting backed up.
Lee: No problem.
Jill: My sort of little elevator pitch, you know, is I specialize in trauma, addiction, betrayal, trauma, infidelity, love addiction, all things relationships, and I have been a one-on-one therapist for all these years. And I've decided that I want to figure out how to translate me into courses and modules and packages and be able to reach more people. And I have my niche that I'm wanting to talk about and I really just don't know how to go from being a one on one therapist into creating packages and becoming more of a coach in my specialty niche.
Lee: Well, then it's sounding like we know exactly what we're going to talk about today, which is really exciting. And I love doing that kind of work, helping therapists move into coaching and also expand their ideas and possibilities for how they can serve their people. So this is going to be great. I'm curious, we're going to speak for, I don't know, the next 30 minutes or so, at the end of that time, what would your ideal outcome be? What would you like to walk away with from today's call?
Jill: I would like to have more clarity. I'd like to have an actual step by step plan, maybe not for the entire thing, but do this and then do that and then do that, you know, kind of a flowchart almost, because what happens for me is I know everything I need to do and want to do, but then it all gets jumbled in my brain and becomes overwhelming and I stall out you know, it's kind of like system overload. Like I have all of the apps and things I want to use and try and apply. I’ve listened to your podcasts with systems and things but then I'm like, I don't know where to start. Yeah, like I signed up for Dubsado but that's all I did. That was like a month ago. I haven't done anything with it. I just get overwhelmed.
Lee: Yes, and that happens to me too sometimes, especially when I am consuming a lot of content. When I'm reading a lot of books and taking courses and listening to podcasts – that's all great material, but then sometimes that actually can prevent me from taking action. I have to turn down the volume on everyone else so that I can really focus on my work my inner voice and take action. So I love that you have been listening to the podcast, and you've been doing all this work but today, we're gonna tune all of that out. And we're just going to focus on you and your business and what you want to create so that at the end of the call, ideally, we will have a kind of a step by step beginnings of an action plan so that you know exactly what you're going to do as soon as we hang up. And we'll get your business off and running. How does that sound?
Jill: Sounds amazing.
Lee: Excellent. So you mentioned that you did want to talk a little bit about your niche. So I'd love to hear more about who you serve, and how you serve them.
Jill: My company is called Love Rehab, my coaching company.
Lee: I love that name, by the way,
Jill: Trademarked it.
Jill: I love that name too, I used to try and do it by another name many, many years ago, and it just made no sense. What it really is specifically about is relationships. It's primarily dating, but it is also for people struggling in relationships. It's for people who feel like they have a broken picker or people who are successful in all other areas of their life except relationships, people who are struggling with a broken heart and don't know how to move on. People who identify either as like a love addict, or relationship challenges or things like that. So it's really specific to relationships and dating.
Lee: What I think is so cool about the people that you're working with is that this really does seem to be the one area where things are just not gelling for them, I imagine that they are excelling in their profession or at work, that their friendships are probably pretty strong. So I would imagine that there's this funny tension that occurs when they are excelling in so many aspects of their life. And yet, when it comes to relationships, they feel like they're a novice.
Jill: I have a lot, a lot of people who are very incredibly successful in business, in life, in achievements, and then it comes down to relationships, and I have so many people who come in and, “I'm broken, I'm crazy, there's something wrong with me, I'm never gonna find my person”, and it's really devastating to them because they've been so successful in everything else that they've done. And so it's my absolute most favorite thing to work with, out of all my specialties and all my years of experience, it's my absolute favorite thing.
Lee: Excellent. And so I would love to hear from you how you would like to bring this special talent and expertise that you have into the coaching world? What kind of work would you most love to do with this particular client?
Jill: Ooh, good question. What kind of art would I most like to do? Well, my goals for my clients, and that's usually, obviously, to be able to figure out how to find the right person for them, you know, to find their person, my ultimate goal is to have them feel happy and fulfilled and at peace and confident with or without a relationship. Because ultimately, that's what it comes down to. You don't need a relationship to feel confident and great. Relationships are amazing and I'm very good at helping people get to great relationships. But ultimately, I love getting people to the place where even if they're not in a relationship, currently, they're still thriving and feel fulfilled. They're not feeling depressed, and like there's something wrong with them, or lonely. I like to transform that lonely feeling into a feeling of peace and serenity. So it doesn't matter if they have a relationship or not, I can help you get there. But that's ultimately my goal.
Lee: Yes. And I think what you've just done beautifully is clarify the difference between what your clients want, and what they need, what they want. And what they're coming to you for is a relationship, a healthy relationship, or at least feeling more confident about their ability to find someone that's going to be a good fit, so that they no longer have that broken picker. What you know they need transcends the relationship, it really goes into their relationship with themselves and how they view themselves in the world. And I love that because that's going to inform how you talk about what you do as well as your services because we definitely want to meet your client where they're at now, which is, I want better relationships. But you also know the deeper underlying work that has to happen as well so that they can get that and then some.
Lee: So talk to me about what that work looks like. Are we talking one on one coaching? Do you want to do groups? Like what's really kind of turning you on about this?
Jill: When I think about how I would love for my program to look is, it's a combination of one on one coaching. But I have a lot of, for lack of a better word, psychoeducation. Like, I hate the word lectures, but they're, you know, information, informational conversations that I repeat over and over and over again on various topics to my clients that I would love to be able to put into modules. It's the same information I dispense each person. So I would like to have a course or a program with videos of me doing my lectures to kind of like they can buy me in a package in a program so that it's not me having to do the same thing over which makes me more accessible. I would like to do a combination of that, I wanted to do a podcast, but that I think I'm going to put a halt until I get this preliminary stuff sorted out. I think it's a combination of one on one coaching, and then a program with my information I dispense all the time, into videos that they can watch, and then we can maybe even create a workbook to go with it. But some people don't like workbooks, I like to cater to what people gravitate towards.
Lee: What I really like about what you're describing is that I can see how this could be scalable. So we do have the essential content that someone could go through on their own as a traditional online course but then you could also offer different levels. So maybe the VIP level includes private coaching with you, maybe a different level includes a half-day intensive. So it's not an ongoing coaching relationship, but they do have an opportunity to really do some deep work with you in a single session. Maybe another option might be a group setting. So we can really take the material that you want to provide that becomes the hub of the offer. And then you can have other, kind of, add ons or upgrades depending on what the client needs and what their financial ability is, as well.
Jill: Yes, I like that.
Lee: Awesome. Tell me a little bit about the course and what you're envisioning for that.
Jill: As I've been constructing this in my head and getting more serious about it, I've been sort of, even when I'm in session with my clients, I'll remember something like a subject matter. And I'm like, “Ooh, that would be a great module”, so I'll write it down. I have easily like 30 different things. Even though it's coaching, I still want to get an idea of their attachment style. So just something about their attachment style and a little lecture of that. The idea of being someone's priority and not their option, the idea of masculine energy and female energy, ad I have a ton of topics and subjects that I talk about all the time that I could easily translate into videos. And I think I forgot your question.
Lee: No, no, no, you're answering it because I was kind of asking what would go into this course. So now you're right on track. So I'm want to talk a little bit about the development of it because I'm wondering if that's where the hiccup is, what's keeping you from moving forward and say, recording these videos and creating a course?
Jill: I think I'm getting stuck in what order to put them in. And I get stuck in the idea of like the workflow, like, once someone starts my program, what happens next, then next, then next, then next, what do they get next? And just the organization of it all, like I said, I kind of dumped all these ideas out of my brain into, I use Trello. Just keep all my ideas there, then that's where it ends and I don't know what to do next.
Lee: Okay, and this is one of those things where we can brainstorm and come up with ideas and develop a workflow. And oftentimes, it's not until we actually put it into action that we see whether our hypothesis was right, whether the flow works, whether the curriculum works, or whether there needs to be some development. And so I'm curious to know from you how you would feel about maybe doing a beta round of this where you really are testing out, okay, what if we start with this and then we move to that, and then we move to that. And then you can get feedback from the participants as you're creating it. So it can really inform the process. It's one way of going about course creation and I'm curious what your thoughts are about that, what might work, what the limitations are, as it's sitting with you.
Jill: I like the idea. Instantly where my brain goes is like okay, but then what do I do first? Do I organize my Dubsado? Do I record the videos? And then you can hear me getting stuck right now?
Lee: Yes, yes. So let's, let's kind of reframe it. Let's put the spotlight on the client for a second, let me ask you, what's the very first thing your client needs to think, feel, or do in order to gain the most out of a program with you?
Jill: First thing they need to think, feel, or do? Well, usually I want to get what their goals are first. And then the next thing I want to know is, what specifically is bringing them in? Like, where are they at with relationships? What's their history been? Like, what are their pain points? So it's a lot of history, like some information in history gathering first, which I guess would come in the form of probably a pretty extensive intake or historical type of the gathering.
Lee: And so is this something that you would want to pull into the program experience? Would you do that type of individual intake with each member of your course?
Jill: I don't know. I think so. Yes.
Jill: Yeah, I need to know that kind of stuff, which can be done pretty easily in written form. And then it could be a matter of doing a thorough onboarding phone call, so I can get a sense of where they're at and where they've been. I like to know that stuff.
Lee: Excellent, okay. So that would be kind of step one, then, is clarifying what that process would look like, and what the intake form would look like, or the questionnaire, and how you would structure the call. So before we even get into the coursework, we can focus on creating that initial onboarding experience for your program client, and get really clear on the questions you're asking, because that's going to inform the content that you're creating. That may be step one, and I love that you went there, because it just again, shows that you are really centering this program on your client's needs, like you're not making this up or saying, well, based on what I think, no, you're actually going straight to the source, you are going to your client, and you are hearing directly from them, where their challenges are, what their obstacles are and what they want from you in order to kind of guide them through it. Right? So I'm just wondering how open you might be to the idea of treating this almost as a live group at first, where maybe the content isn't pre-recorded, but you're actually recording it as like a live presentation.
Jill: You mean, like during the beta testing?
Jill: Yes, I would be very open to that.
Lee: And at that point, too, if it's good to go the way it is, then you can take that live content, and that becomes the recorded content, or in the process of delivering that live content, you may discover things that need to be tweaked or order that needs to be changed, so that when you then go back to record it, for the final version, you've already got almost like a practice trial run under your belt.
Jill: So you're saying instead of pre-recording videos ahead of time, do my first round of everything, as live group recording videos and see how that goes.
Lee: What do you think about that as a possible approach?
Jill: I kind of like that, actually, because I'm a pretty interactive person, and much more comfortable talking with people than just to a camera. So that actually could work out a lot better, because that's a much more of my natural way of being.
Lee: Then I might suggest playing around with that idea, that this very first time you're running a group program, it's going to be live. And, again, with the technology that we have at our disposal, it's easy to record those sessions, then the next time you run the program, you can decide, alright, do I want to just go with the live recorded content that I already have? Or do I want to repurpose that into a more traditional course where I'm looking at the camera, or I'm screen sharing and doing that kind of thing? I think that the benefit of doing a live round at first, well, first you create some recorded content that you can repurpose in the future. But second, you're also trying it out with a group of people who can provide you with that instant feedback.
Jill: Right, okay. Awesome.
Lee: So let's talk about what the program might actually look like, then. You mentioned that you've got like 30 plus different ideas and modules and so forth. How are you feeling about the overall structure and organization of the content at this point?
Jill: I think I just need to really sit down and look at everything that I've got on my idea boards, and just start playing around with the order and be more flexible with myself as to, things are probably going to have to change, I'll probably change a bunch of times and also there may not need to be an exact order because these things are interchangeable. And some of these things don't matter if they are the third module or the sixth module, it's all important information. And I could create the program in a way that they don't have to go in order, they can pick and choose whichever ones they want to watch or engage with, based on where they're at.
Lee: So, oh, that's a really cool idea. I can see it almost like, you know, maybe there is some foundational content that they watch as part of, say, phase one. But then once they get into phase two, then you've got these other modules that they can kind of watch in the order that's going to work best for them. And so now you're creating even more personalization within a group program. That's a really neat idea.
Jill: Yeah, well, and the other thing that's coming to mind is, I am very much about like attachment styles. It's just a way that I work. So I'm also thinking, identify what their attachment styles are, and then they can go in the direction of whichever their styles are. Some things are universal and apply to everybody, and there's other things that I talk about specific to their particular relationship style.
Lee: Yes, and let me tell you, I love where you're going with this because I can see you pulling out the attachment theory approach as a way of attracting people to the workshop, to begin with. So maybe it looks like an opt-in quiz, where people can take a quiz to get a general idea about their attachment style, that quiz then gets them into an email sequence where they get to know you, and you can introduce the course to them as an option. I can see how then in the course you would go even deeper into the attachment style, so you can kind of get them interested and connected, and then lead them through the process where your course seems like the inevitable next step.
Lee: Okay, this is starting to take shape. And one of the things I heard you say, was just giving yourself some time to really sit down with your idea board, and start figuring out maybe how things want to flow. And if there are maybe content buckets or categories with different concepts want to be, because that may help give some structure and some organization to the course as well.
Jill: Yeah, and that's one of the things I need to do. I just need to create, the time to do it, is get everything into like just what you said the categories or the buckets, because there's definitely some themes that have emerged, as I've been creating my ideas in module form, that is going to require me carving out the time to sit down and look at it.
Lee: What do you need, if anything, to take that step to carve out the time and to sit down and do it?
Jill: Probably my husband to watch the kid. I want to go spend the whole weekend, like Mommy needs some work time on the weekend.
Lee: I love that, and actually where my head went was you're really treating this almost like a date with your course, you know, and you need to get someone to watch the kids. So you can have a date night with your course. And if that's your husband, you've got built-in childcare right there. But I think if we really treat this not like I've got to do some course planning, but it's more like an event, you know, really like a date night, like, I'm going to spend some time really connecting with my course and it's going to receive all of my attention. And so treating it as you would a special event with your partner. There's something about that idea, especially because this is a course about relationships, it just feels so fun. And that if we bring the energy to the development of the course into your business in general, that you want your clients to bring to their relationships, it just feels so in integrity, with who you are and how you want to operate.
Jill: Yeah, our story is very much in line with my entire program. I basically lived my program and so it's one of the reasons I'm so passionate about it because I know it works.
Lee: Excellent. And I love hearing that. I think that's one area where coaching does offer us a little more flexibility to than what we see in a traditional therapeutic setting. I know when I was practicing as a therapist, there were so many times where I would want to share something and you know, self-disclosure, when you're a therapist, you have to be really cautious about that. But with coaching and online courses, we really can be a little more open about our personal experiences and how they combined with our training and our skills and our knowledge inform the work we do. So I love that you have such a personal story that connects with your work.
Jill: Yeah, it's a good story.
Lee: If it's not already, that better be front and center on your about page for your course sales page.
Lee: Awesome. So let's kind of check back in, so we've talked about possibly running this initial beta round of the course as a live program. And so that way you can be really responsive to your clients and you can see how it wants to evolve. And then we've talked about the next step is really carving out some time so that you can take all of these great ideas that you have, and start creating some organization and some structure around it. What would need to happen next?
Jill: I think, it's just honestly getting the technology sorted out, creating where they actually go, to sign up, creating the forms, creating the emails, creating the workflow, which is another thing that I get overwhelmed with. But I think I remember hearing you on one of your podcasts, you had to just really sit down and like, learn it. And once you learned it, it was really powerful because you knew it. And I think it's just taking the time to educate myself. Technology intimidates me, I'm not the worst, but I'm not the best at it. And so learning new systems overwhelms me at the beginning. And then once I've kind of dig in, I usually am kind of wondering why I let myself get overwhelmed. This isn't such a big deal but just thinking about it, it's like, it's another one of those like, up and stuck again.
Lee: I so relate to that. I really do. Because a lot of times, I will prevent myself from doing something because I feel so anxious and overwhelmed about the technology piece. That's exactly why it took me a year and a half to transition all of my scheduling to Dubsado. Even though I was paying for another scheduler and Dubsado had everything I needed, I felt so overwhelmed about the technical process that it really paralyzed me. And I think a lot of us experienced some paralysis when it comes to technology. Yeah, what I think you just said, that's so important is that, you know, that overwhelm comes at the beginning. But then once you get into it, you're okay. So if we kind of acknowledge that the overwhelm is the first step, and it's like, oh, good, here's overwhelm. I'm there. Step one, what's step two, then we kind of give ourselves permission to have that feeling. We don't view it as an obstacle anymore, but more of like, a marker that, “Oh, right, we're on the right track”. So now that I'm overwhelmed, now I can dig in.
Jill: Yeah, it's that and then I'll fixate on things I don't think are as important. But I will assess it like you know, I'm redoing my logo for Love Rehab, I don't want something that looks nicer. And I can't do anything else until I have the logo done. And then I can't do anything else until I revamp my website, to go with the logo because I don't like the website. And so like I'll go install, because you know, in my head, those things, it has to look the way I want it to look before I can launch it, even though I have a website with information. And look, I want to look. So I will tell myself that these things are so important before I create forms, before I put my theme and my color scheme into just Dubsado I have to have the logo first. And I know that's just a story. I'm telling myself that that is where I get stuck.
Lee: Yes. Well, so tell me about that story, then why are you telling yourself that story? How has it helped you?
Jill: It has not helped at all, because at the end of the day, nobody really cares about your logo. But I tell myself, Well, if I start now with no logo, or with my old logo that I don't like that, I'm gonna have to change it. And then people are gonna get confused. And it just needs to be all clean and fresh from the very beginning. I don't want it to be messy. That's sort of how am I.
Lee: So that's how the story is trying to help, you whether or not it's helping you, we'll talk about that in a second. But this story is trying to help you. It knows that, you know, if we don't start with perfection from the beginning, if we have to change it later, then it's going to confuse your clients. And if your clients are confused, then that's going to cause problems down the road. So I'm going to help you out here. I'm going to make sure that you get it perfect from the start. So that way, we don't have to worry about any of this other stuff in the future. You're welcome. Right? So what does that really do, though, then it just brings us right back to that good old paralysis, doesn't it?
Jill: Oh, yeah. It has me six months later, having made zero progress.
Lee: Exactly, exactly. Oh, my gosh, yeah, I relate to that. That's a whole nother podcast topic. But I think maybe then what it is, is really kind of coming back to how you do want to show up right now. And yes, the desire to have that perfect logo, I totally get that, but if the perfection of it is keeping you from making progress, what message would better support you taking that next step?
Jill: There's no such thing as perfect. And that this is going to be an ever-evolving process that will probably continue to change and evolve and grow, forever.
Lee: I like that I'm hearing a bit of a question mark at the end. So how's it sitting with you, as you say that out loud?
Jill: Now I'm sitting here thinking about, you know, I've had therapy practice for 20 years. And I still over the years, there's always something new to learn. There's always something, especially as technology has changed that I've added to or tweaked or, you know, change. So, I've certainly been through many evolutions since I first started out, I think I just need to remember that for this. This will be the same thing. And I think I also get stuck in, I've had a very successful private practice as a therapist, and I almost even though, going into Love Rehab, I've been doing coaching, I just haven't created a coaching program like I want to create. And I think I just need to remind myself that, yes, this particular endeavor is new. And I'm starting out new with this. But I've done this, and I've done it well. And I can do this again, in this realm.
Lee: Yes, yes, yes, all of that, you have so much wisdom that you bring into this newer venture, from your experience as a therapist and private practitioner, it is so transferable. And so it's not a matter of starting from the ground floor, and not knowing anything, you're already so far ahead, because of all of the experience you have. And the fact that there was change and evolution in that first business. And so you know that that's going to happen in your second one, too. And I would even argue that that's a sign of a healthy business, one that changes and one that's adaptable and flexible and evolves over time. Otherwise, it gets stale, and it doesn't grow with your clients. It doesn't grow with you. So the idea that there will be changed to me is actually a sign of a healthy business.
Jill: Yeah. Well, I always say if you ever meet a therapist who thinks they know everything run fast. I'm always a student of life. That sounds so corny, but it's true.
Lee: Yeah, it is. I just want to note that even just over the last few minutes, I hear you bringing a greater sense of almost compassion to yourself that it doesn't have to be perfect. And actually, maybe it's okay, if it's not perfect, because that means it's growing and evolving and changing. And just like it did before with my first business, it's going to happen again with this one. And that's okay. That's actually a good sign.
Lee: Wow, we've covered a lot today. I mean, we've really run the gamut. What are some of your key takeaways from everything we've talked about so far?
Jill: Well, definitely doing the live group recording, I hadn't really considered that. And I think that's a really good idea for the way I work. And the way this can sort of start and grow. And I mean, I took a lot of notes, we didn't really talk about packaging, but I liked when you threw out like the VIP level private coaching, half day intensive group setting, that's something that I know I'm going to need to create. As far as packaging goes, I'm not really so worried about the packaging part, I think I can do that. And I like the beta testing idea. I had not thought of that either. And this last part of that we just talked about is just sort of giving myself some grace and knowing that this is going to be something that will grow and evolve and change. And that's how it should be, it shouldn't be perfect. From the very beginning, I think I get stuck in that perfection, way of thinking, and that there is no such thing as perfect. And I say that all the time to my clients, I need to take my own advice.
Lee: I love how you described it as giving yourself grace. And I just got this sense of spaciousness when you said that. And the idea that if we can bring that sense of spaciousness to the work, and to bring that grace to the work, then not only are you going to be serving your clients powerfully, but it's going to feel really good for you while you're doing it as well. And we don't want to lose sight of you in this either because you matter.
Jill: Yes, I do.
Lee: So what is your next step? I know one of the things we wanted was to kind of establish a plan for you. How are you feeling about that? And what's your next step after this call?
Jill: I really think I need to dive into Dubsado. I just have that email sitting there saying let's get you set up. I haven't even opened it yet. So I mean, I have somebody working on my logo, but I think I need to just dive in on my completed logo and educate myself on that and I need to spend some time on some of the other kind of systems that you've recommended in some of your other podcasts that I've taken notes on, I really think that's what I need to just do is jump through the overwhelm of learning a new system, and just start playing around with it. And, you know, exploring it.
Lee: Yeah, diving in. Excellent.
Jill: I think what I want to do is create a fake client account, so I can kind of see what it looks like from the client end and play with that, so I feel more comfortable about what they're gonna see.
Lee: That's a brilliant idea. I love that.
Jill: I think that's what I need to do next. That feels like the next thing is conquering Dubsado.
Lee: So number one, conquer Dubsado, which I have no doubt you can do.
Jill: Creating the workflow. And then I think also, what I need to do is figure out how I want to structure group calls and scheduling and start marketing, that I can get a group of people together to do a beta test.
Lee: Excellent. Excellent. I love it. And then we'll combine that too, with what you mentioned earlier about carving out some time to really sit with your ideas and start to organize them so that they can take shape. And combining that with the feedback that you're getting from your ideal clients, the people you're marketing to, I think you're gonna find that your course really just kind of presents itself to you.
Jill: Yeah, yeah. Which is true for a lot of things in my career. My niche kind of found me.
Lee: Yeah, well, when we follow the energy, right, that's our guide. When things are coming from a sense of flow, when it's tapping into what we're naturally good at. To me, that's the ultimate sign that we're on the right path.
Lee: Jill, you have done so much great work today. And I cannot wait to hear what happens next. I hope you'll keep me posted on how the program develops.
Jill: I will absolutely and this has been extremely helpful.
Lee: I'm so glad to hear that. Where can we learn more about you and connect with you? Especially if there's a listener out there who wants to know more about Love Rehab? What's the best way to find you?
. Excellent, and we will include a link to that in the show notes as well.
Lee: Excellent. Well, Jill, thank you again, for coming on the show. I'm so grateful. And I know our conversation today, not only will it serve you but it's going to serve so many other listeners too. So thank you.
Jill: Thank you, I appreciate it.