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LEE: Well, hello, Joy. Thank you so much for being on the Coach with Clarity podcast today.

JOY: Hi, thanks so much for having me.

LEE: It's my pleasure. I'm really excited to dive in because I think we've got some really juicy stuff to talk about today. But before we do that, I'd love to share you with the world. So tell us a little bit about who you are and the work that you most love doing?

JOY: Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Joy, or Joyous, Williams and I am a lot of things, but I am an art therapist, I'm a trauma therapist, and I'm also a transformational coach. I like to work with folks who are on every level of the trauma, healing, and transformational journey. 

LEE: I love that it's such a comprehensive wraparound approach to things. I think that's fantastic.

JOY: Thank you.

LEE: So what would you like to talk about during our time together today?

JOY: Yeah, I have been in the process of doing training, and mentoring, and launching my coaching practice, and as I'm sure you know, from going through the process, there's your own transformation and your own sort of up-leveling that happens and you change so much in the process, which is amazing but also can be maybe confusing. So I think that even though I've had lots of transformations, and as someone who has had some complicated and traumatic history myself, that there's like this combination of like selling and connecting with other people, that is still something that I'm just like a little, “ugh” about. 

LEE: It's not sitting quite right with you. Not yet, at least. 

JOY: Yeah. 

LEE: All right, that sounds like that's going to be the focus for our call today is really talking about what it means to sell coaching, and maybe kind of reduce the squeamish stickiness factor behind it. 

JOY: I love it. 

LEE: Okay, and in fact, let's go ahead and quantify it. So, on a scale of one to ten how uncomfortable Are you feeling right now, with this idea of selling what you're doing?

JOY: Whoo. So this gets into some of the technicalities for me of, if I imagined myself sending a private message, for example, I am easily a seven squeamish. I would say if it's more passive, like I'm starting ad-spend, and I get a client who does a coaching consult, and like they've found me, I would say that's more like a four. Like there's a little anxiety about what might happen but not avoidance.

LEE: I so appreciate that you answered that way because what I'm hearing then is that when you feel like you are initiating the contact, say through a private message, that's where the ick factor goes up. Versus, yes, I mean, you're putting the Facebook ad out, but that's a little more passive. Someone is like actively opting in, and that feels less so, is that fair to say? 

JOY: Yeah, absolutely. 

LEE: Okay. Okay. So by the end of this call, then if we can maybe reduce that ick factor a bit, I'm wondering kind of how you would like to feel about the prospect of connecting with potential clients.

JOY: Hmm. I mean, it would be amazing if it was, you know, even less than a four, in general, that would be…I’m at the place where I don't imagine that's possible, but anything is possible, right? 

LEE: Fair enough. Fair enough. So the ick factor would be down to a four or less, what would you be feeling? If not icky? Like, how do you want to feel about this? 

JOY: Good question. You know, I feel like a pretty grounded person in general, so I would like to feel grounded. I mean, there's some excitement and some butterflies. I think being someone who is sort of a highly sensitive person or an empath that I don't think will go away, but I would like to feel grounded and excited.

LEE: Okay. Oh, yes – grounded and excited about this whole kind of leading a client through your sales process? 

JOY: Yes. 

LEE: Okay, and how grounded and excited do you feel about it right now, like one to ten scale?

JOY: Grounded? I feel like a six. I have built confidence in it, for sure. And then excited? Probably about the same.

LEE: Okay. Where would you like to be when we ended the call today? 

JOY: An eight. 

LEE: Okay. All right. So we're shooting for eight two notches up. I think that's pretty reasonable. So, before we like dive into it, I want to clarify why this matters to you. Why is it so important that you feel grounded and excited about this process?

JOY: Yeah. I consider myself at this point, because of my skill sets both clinical and transformational, to be a trauma clearing badass.

LEE: Can we trademark that, please? 

JOY: Yes, yes. 

LEE: Before someone else does.

JOY: Trademark.

(both laughing) 

JOY: So I have to do this work for myself and model it, it's still maybe something that I see as a little bit of like a starvation economy, and a little bit of like a visibility issue, and I have done this work on so many levels for myself that I see it as important to the accountability and integrity of what I'm doing for one. And then for two, that really just gets into my “why”, like I see clearing intergenerational B.S. and our own patterns of interacting with the world as healing the planet and as healing everything like for our future generations and for the possibilities of what we can create in this life, and so I see it as inextricably linked to our survival and also our social healing.

LEE: Yes, yes, you are speaking my language right now. That is powerful, and through the work you do, you have the potential, not just to change one life, but to heal intergenerational trauma and to change things moving forward. And it just makes us ripple effect that builds out and out and out, and it really can change the world. And we pair that with what I'm sensing is another key value for you. I think you said integrity and the word authenticity, which I know can be kind of overused, but I think that's certainly applicable here where you are showing up as you are, so there's nothing false or fake or high pressure about how you want to approach the sales process.

JOY: Absolutely, absolutely, and what I think I know about myself is that even in writing, I can have that passive language approach where I want to empower people to make their own choice. So sometimes I don't also call them in enough to like step up to that self-responsibility of making a commitment for example.

LEE: Yeah. Okay, excellent. So where did you think we should begin?

JOY: I would love to hear your thoughts, and explore the idea of that marketing with integrity and authenticity. I think that we hear so much advice, and I do love learning, that I have absorbed so much information from other places and you know, you get your ads for like, “this is how you have to market,” that I want to explore the possibilities of like, what sounds exciting to me, and then also what I would do in integrity.

LEE: Okay, I love that. This is one of those situations where I think if we follow the energy, or when we follow the energy, and we're looking for excitement and integrity and flow so that it feels good and it feels good in the body, then we're going to know that we're on the right path. And I'm curious what has already come up for you around this idea of approaching marketing with excitement and with integrity.

JOY: Right now or in general?

LEE: Maybe let's talk about kind of what your ideas are around marketing from this perspective. Like, have you been thinking about strategy or tactic or is it still kind of amorphous kind of where are you right now in the process?

JOY: Absolutely. So I have done some outreach, in terms of like sending private messages and being perfectly honest, not totally followed up on those. When I initiate, right, and I have had some where someone has posted an outreach and I've responded to them in a private message and feel pretty comfortable with that. And I am starting the ad-spend, which I feel excited and pretty grounded and comfortable with. So I think it's this idea of putting myself out there on social media or me initiating like, “Hey, I see this need for you”, let me sell myself and tell you how I can be the answer to your problems. That is the stickiest for me.

LEE: That makes sense, and actually, there's a word that just came up for me. It's a bit of a heavy word, there can be a lot of connotation with it, but I feel called to share it. And the word that came up for me was consent. We really want to approach marketing, from a place where there's consent from all parties.

JOY: Yeah, absolutely, and I think literally in the moment when you said that I did feel my body calmed down a little bit.

LEE: Okay. Okay, well, then, that's why I felt called to share it with you clearly. And I think for you, especially given your work around trauma and so forth, consent is doubly important, triply important, you know, and that we want to be modeling that through every stage of the process for our clients. And so yes, let's look at excitement and integrity and authenticity, and all of that – and let's make sure that consent is also at the center of your marketing process. 

JOY: Yeah, I love it. 

LEE: Awesome. So let's talk then because it sounds like private messaging is one avenue that you've been using to connect with potential clients. How is that even initiated? Like, where do you find them? How do they find you? How does that even get started?

JOY: When I've been on the receiving end, sometimes someone might send you a friend request and then send you a private message because they see your profile information. For me, I've done that with some of my own friends who I see and I've been encouraged to do that to see friends for like, “Hey, I see this area where you might benefit from coaching”, you know, “are interested in talking about it?”, and those are the ones that I have kind of like initiated and then not like really followed up or pushed because again, there's like the consent thing. I also think it's really important for me as a person that I know that like, no one can make you be ready for something that you're not ready to do, and there is some level of like, people will avoid if they want to avoid and do I want to be that person to really push them towards a new reality. You know, just me inserting myself basically versus having that consent. I think that's all for private messaging. Those are the two variations that I've experienced. 

LEE: Okay, and that makes a lot of sense because when someone has found you, and they've initiated the friend request, and they've emailed you, then there's implied consent, right? They've reached out saying, I want to know more about this, versus when we like, slide into someone's DMs and say, “Hey, I've got this thing going, I think you'd be really great for it”, then we're assuming consent. It's understandable then that that might feel a little off-putting to you because that's not in accordance with your values. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you should never send someone a direct message, but what I'm saying is like how can we do that in a way that still feels in alignment with what matters most to you? 

JOY: Right. 

LEE: Before I kind of pipe in, I'm curious, like, as we're talking about this, what ideas or what thoughts you have around it?

JOY: Well, I think that one thing that is a pretty deep piece of this, that when you talked about the consent, you know, and I think it relates for me, the body calming down in history and things is, I grew up Jehovah's Witness. So, as you can imagine, doing important work that I think is going to change the world, and having experience knocking on people's door without maybe consent, right? 

LEE: Mmhmm. 

JOY: Actually is a really big thing for me. So it made me realize when we said that, that while I do think what I do is important, and I want to spread the word. I also don't want to do it from that place of maybe the urgency of like, I need to save your soul, or from a place of nonsense. 

LEE: Yes, I always talk about our role is not to convince or convert, you know, and we can take that quite literally with religion, right? That's the point, they want conversion. For me, the word conversion is used a lot in terms of what's your conversion rates and so forth and so on, but really, I think what we're talking about here is the energy needs to be one that's inviting and welcoming and not, I'm going to convince you or cajole you into working with me. And I'm just sensing this idea that these kind of unsolicited DM’s are just not sitting well with you, on the whole, some of them might, but I'm sensing some real hesitancy around them. 

JOY: Yeah. 

LEE: So I have some thoughts, but before I jump the gun, tell me a little bit about the program that you do have that you want to offer to people and that you are marketing.

JOY: Yeah, absolutely. So my program is going to be tailored to folks and different groups. It's a weekly group video conference coaching call, with a couple of like individual sessions to support obviously, for some more privacy or a little bit of extra support, if something, you know, happens between sessions, and then an online group space for peer support and for during the week for things that pop up for additional support from me as well. And it's a very organic program in that you can bring whatever issues are on the table, whether that be things that are popping up in relationships, relationships with children, work, building business, and then we are really looking at the energy that you're bringing to the table. We're looking at the mindset that you have and kind of unearthing what that is looking at it and clearing it out so that it doesn't keep you stuck anymore.

LEE: I love it. I love it. And you've mentioned at the start that you're kind of sectioning it out so that there will be different groups?

JOY: Yes, yeah, absolutely. So I have one that is designed to be more for folks who are parents, who really have some of those intergenerational ties, issues with parents, that kind of thing. And also, then, like for me not wanting to pass down that intergenerational B.S. to our children – that was such a driving force for me in my life, that I feel like I was almost afraid of it so that I was causing disconnection with my kid and I didn't even realize it. And so that group of people are my people because of the fact that I am a parent, and an evolving paren,t and a child of someone who has had trauma and mental health issues, and I have lived in poverty basically at times so those people are my people – The Cycle Breakers – right, if you will. And then the other one is really specifically therapists because as a therapist, I know that we get to do this therapy work and we heal a lot, and then we sort of put things on like a shelf in a pretty box with a label, like attachment problems. And then that's all as far as we go, and we say, “Oh, okay, I know that I have attachment problems. There it is on the shelf, I'm done.” and what I found for myself is that there is actual transformation that can happen. That is a deeper level of healing, and that allows us to go deeper and do even greater work with our clients, and I think that that's a little bit more of a special focus for those of us who are therapists. So they have their own group, and then thirdly, I feel like it's really important for coaching to be intersectional and inclusive. 

LEE: Say that again, for the people in the back, please.

JOY: Yes, absolutely. I think it's imperative actually, that coaching be intersectional and inclusive. So I want to offer options for LGBTQ and minority folks to make sure that they have access to coaching services. I have some ideas about award seeds and things like that, that I want to create, as well, to make sure that I'm not just serving a bunch of white ladies with some extra cash in their pockets. 

LEE: Oh, yes. I love everything about that. Okay, so you've got some clearly defined audiences here, which is terrific, and you're also very dialed in on the process and what that looks like. And I also get the sense that you know the journey that that client is going to experience with you, you know where they're starting, you know the ideal outcome, and you know the milestones that they're going to be hitting along the way. So from a client journey perspective, it sounds like you have that fairly dialed in. Does that feel right?

JOY: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's a mixture of a tailored organic process for folks, and then also I have levels of different commitment and different, kind of, stages of like where you are in your mindset, where you are and your ability to explore the quantum field, and your own shadow, and even where you are in your business journey. Like there's a level for, actually, I borrowed your co-working sessions and doing like spiritual entrepreneur stuff, of getting more into doing the work and supporting fellow spiritual entrepreneurs too. So there's levels and milestones like you said, across the board,

LEE: That makes me happy – borrow away. Okay, so you clearly have something of value that is there to serve people. And so yes, we want to get the word out about it and we want to share it with people so that if they want to opt-in, if they want to consent to participate, they can. Here's what I'm thinking and this is where if it's okay with you, I am going to switch a little more into a consultant role and kind of tell you what's coming up for me, and then we can kind of poke holes in it if we need to. 

JOY: Absolutely. 

LEE: I suspect one of the reasons that some of the DMs have felt uncomfortable is because you're going after the person as a potential client, like, “Hey, I have this, are you interested?”. And I'm wondering if we kind of shifted, and we view them instead as a potential referral source and we say, “Hey, I'm building this program. This is what it looks like, this is who it's intended for. Who do you know, that might benefit from it? Can you help connect me with someone?” so then it becomes less about, “Hey, I'm selling to you”, and it's more about, “Hey, can you make this referral?”. And if it's them, if it speaks to them, then essentially they're going to self refer and they're going to say, “Actually, that sounds like something I need, let's talk”, and then guess what? They're consenting! If not, then it's more about, “Okay. Well, let me think about who might be a good fit for you”. So how does it feel if we were to approach it from that perspective? 

JOY: It feels great. Yeah, absolutely. 

LEE: Okay. Well, excellent. All right. Done. No, I mean, there's definitely ways that we can kind of fine-tune that message, but that might be my number one suggestion for you is for now with this particular strategy, viewing the person on the other end of that message as a referring source, not as a client.

JOY: Yeah, I like that.

LEE: Okay. So what would that look like in action for you?

JOY: I think that I would want to get very clear on my language about what it is that I'm offering so that it could cast second hand. I think that's a little snag that I imagine but other than that, you know, I don't want to just like immediately friend, request someone and send them a DM and say that right away either, like I want that to be authentic.

LEE: Yeah, it's like, “Hey, take me to dinner first”, right? But like, but it's true like there needs to be a warm-up, and I think that's the other thing and sometimes why these DMs feel so awkward is we go immediately into the pitch instead of building a relationship, and in my mind when marketing is at its best, it is about relationship building. It's about getting to know someone well enough that you can assess, yes, I see this need because we've connected because we've talked, and here's something that could fill that need. Would you like to learn more?

JOY: And I think the only piece about that that I wonder is when you are more of an introvert, or, you know, a highly sensitive person, although I think it's Sarah Weiss, another podcast that said, “consider it highly perceptive”, which I like that definition. So if you are a highly perceptive or empathic or sensitive, whatever word you want to use, person, sometimes I just really don't even want to PM someone. I don't want to spend a lot of time, I hate to say “connecting”, but I don't want to spend a lot of time connecting in a private message because part of my goal and doing all of this is to be more present to my daughter and live my life, right? And so I don't, I don't want to get sucked in in that way either.

LEE: That makes a lot of sense, and actually, I think the answer to that is to be extremely intentional, and even restrictive about who you are engaging within that way. If it's draining your energy, and if it's pulling you away from the people you care about, then we got to limit access to that. So not everyone gets a private message from you. Maybe there can be another way, another vehicle, that you can connect with them, whether it's through, you know, the good ole email opt-in or something like that, or creating a quiz, or whatever that looks like, there can be other pathways in that are less direct and require less time and attention from you. And then you save the direct messaging for the people that you're like, “Oh, I'm feeling really called to reach out and serve this person”.

JOY: Yeah, good point. So it comes from my internal reading of the energy about it, not the obligatory feeling.

LEE: Yeah, Joy, we've talked before, so I know that you have a highly, highly tuned intuition. You are highly perceptive, and I have no doubt that your body and your inner wisdom, they're going to let you know when this is something to follow up on or when it's not. I think it's Michael Port in Book Yourself Solid, he has the metaphor of the velvet rope, right? When someone wants to get into the hot club, there's a velvet rope and the bouncers there and not everyone's getting behind that velvet rope. And it's okay for you to have your own velvet rope, and not everyone gets in your club.

JOY: Yeah. And knowing then that it will also still ripple out because that's where I worried that the velvet rope then won't be inclusive, or intersectional.

LEE: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that. I think that's a really interesting tension between wanting to be accessible and inclusive, but also having some boundaries around energy and who you're able to serve. And I'm curious like when you think about those two, it is easy to put them as opposites as either this or that, but in the interest of intersectionality, where is the overlap between creating boundaries and accessibility?

JOY: I mean, I think I can see where when you're forward-facing, you know, doing the ads, obviously, have a website, all those kinds of things, and I speak to my values, that that puts the values out there, and the people who will align with those values will come and those that don't will have a clear message about where I stand. And then it really does come back to that piece of someone else's self-responsibility to make a choice about what they want to engage in versus me doing it for them.

LEE: Yeah, comes right back to consent.

JOY: Yeah.

LEE: We've covered a lot so far in this call, and I'm curious, let's start with, what are kind of the key takeaways, what's really resonated with you so far?

JOY: The consent thing is just huge, and obviously the trust in myself which is an ever-evolving process. I think it's so easy when you are a highly sensitive and highly tuned in person, to read the room, and then also listen to the other voices and question yourself. So that's probably my biggest takeaway is, consent is a value for me. And then also, that I can trust myself and to really listen to that first, intuitive instinct and not write it off. 

LEE: Yes, with your permission, I would love to share someone that I think if you're not already following her, you would really really dig. Her name is Kelly Diels – and that's spelled Diels – and I believe her website is KellyDiels.com and she is all about taking a feminist perspective to marketing, very concerned with issues of consent, and her concept is we are the culture-makers and she really looks at language and how inclusivity and intersectionality are fundamental to marketing. And I think for you and for I'm sure a lot of our listeners out there, Kelly could be someone worth following. So definitely check out KellyDiels.com.

JOY: Awesome. Yeah, that's a great resource. I already work with Erica and India with the Pause on the Play community and I'm part of that, but I think this is another piece for me. So I appreciate that.

LEE: You're welcome, and I just have to say I love Erica and India. They have been guest experts in the Coach with Clarity membership and they are extraordinary people. So if anyone listening is not already following them, you need to go check out their Pause of the Play podcast and their community. It's fantastic.

JOY: I second that.

LEE: So what is your next step from our call today, what will you do now?

JOY: Well, I think that my ads are actually starting this week, and I'm probably going to do some resting and allowing that to bring me some folks. And then also, I'm going to consider the language that I want to use to reach out to folks as a referral source and get that clear for myself and make sure it feels good to me. So that I have it ready when I want to start doing them. 

LEE: Excellent. Joy, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I'm so grateful that you have come on the show and I'd loved to, before we wrap up, just kind of check back in on that kind of comfort scale. So when you think about marketing now, how grounded and excited are you feeling about it?

JOY: Yeah, I feel I don't remember what I scored before I feel…we're getting close to an eight, maybe a seven and a half on the grounded scale. And excited, I would say about the same. I think there's still some hesitancy but once I put it into motion and I read that moment, you know, where I know, and I trust myself, it's cool. I think the questioning myself will be the area that I continue to expand on in my own personal growth stuff.

LEE: That's understandable. Well, and first off in a relatively short call, like 30 minutes, moving from six to seven and a half – that's progress! I think we can both be proud of ourselves on that one. And yeah, it's understandable to that there's still like the sense of the unknown and, “What's it gonna feel like?”, and sometimes it's really the act of doing it that then resolves that and then our feelings follow. I think moving forward with that is really wise, and I'm really excited to kind of hear how it goes for you. 

JOY: Absolutely. Me too. 

LEE: So before we sign off, where can we learn more about you in the work that you're doing?

JOY: So, my website is everywomxn.com – so it's everywomxn.com and my opt-in for my mailing list and my free download is coach.everywomxn.com so that's the same website but just add coach before it. 

LEE: Excellent and so now people can choose to learn more about you and the work that you're doing out there, and it is really important work. I am so grateful for your presence here today. Thank you for joining me.

JOY: Me too. Thank you so much.

LEE: My pleasure.

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Isn't Joy just a phenomenal coach? I so enjoyed connecting with her during that coaching call, and I love how we were able to connect her vision for her coaching practice and the journey she wants to take her clients on, with a marketing approach that was in full integrity with her values and vision, and would ultimately support the client the client's autonomy – that is so huge and so I hope that in listening to our conversation, you were able to glean some insights for your own marketing practice as well. 

I love doing these podcast coaching calls, and they actually give you a little glimpse into what you can expect within the Coach with Clarity membership. Every month we have a hot seat coaching call during which I provide one on one individualized coaching to two of my members. So we have 30 minutes for one member 30 minutes for a second member, and after each session, there's an opportunity to really break down the coaching process. We talk about the specific skills and approaches I use during that session so that everyone who is observing can benefit and take what works for them and apply it to their coaching approach as well. The hot seat coaching calls are one of my most favorite parts about the membership. So, if you would like an opportunity for some individualized coaching to deepen your own coaching practice and if you'd like to do so within a supportive community of other intuitive, heart-centered, service-minded coaches, then I would love to welcome you into the Coach with Clarity membership. You can learn more at CoachwithClarity.com/membership. 

Again, I hope you enjoy today's coaching call episode. I love recording them and I will be back in your feed next week with another brand new episode of the Coach with Clarity podcast. Until then, my name is Lee Chaix McDonough, reminding you to get out there and show the world what it means to be a Coach with Clarity.