So if you would like to be on a future episode of the Coach with Clarity podcast, you can head to CoachwithClarity.com/contact and when you're there you will see a little button that says “Apply for a Coaching Call”. Click that, fill out the application, and you could be on the hot seat on a future episode of the Coach with Clarity podcast. 

Today I am delighted to introduce you to a fellow coach and social worker Melissa Nytko. So Melissa is a consultant, trainer, coach, and a former school social worker, and she is an expert in trauma-informed care, and specifically the physical and mental impact of burnout on the turnover rate of classroom teachers and social workers. So Melissa has a passion for helping educators of all backgrounds avoid burnout and lead fulfilling lives. As you'll hear in this coaching call Melissa wasn't 100% certain that she had landed on the right niche, and so during our call today, we explored how we can help her feel more secure in who she's serving, and how to create an action plan to help her create traction in her business. 

I am so grateful to Melissa for coming on the show and for giving us a behind the scenes look at what's going on in her business because I suspect there are many of you out there who are at a similar place Melissa is – not feeling 100% confident in her audience, in her niche, or in her offer. But when you listen to today's coaching call, you are going to feel the shift in her energy and just how secure she is feeling about moving forward, serving teachers, and helping them avoid burnout. So let's get right to it with this week's coaching call.

* * * * * * * * * * 

LEE: Hi Melissa, thank you so much for joining me on the Coach with Clarity podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show. 

MELISSA: Thank you. I am super pumped to be here. Thank you for having me. 

LEE: You're welcome. So what would you like to explore today? 

MELISSA: So, I have a particular niche that I really want to work with, and enjoy talking about, and working with. I have a lot of passion about this particular niche, but I have a struggle with…Am I forcing something? I know that there's a benefit to coaching for them, but I also know that sort of “old habits die hard”, and they're sort of accustomed to doing things a certain way, and I'm not sure if this is the time for me to sort of explore that niche that I love and enjoy, or perhaps go a direction that I'm not as familiar with, but is familiar with this type of coaching. LEE: Okay, so we're really kind of getting to the heart of our targeting the right audience? And is this a niche that you should continue to explore or not? Is that fair to say?

MELISSA: That is absolutely correct.

LEE: Okay, tell me a little bit more about who it is you love to serve? 

MELISSA: Yes, so I love helping educators. I spent 14 years in education, and I really saw the toll that, you know, some disengagement, and some burnout happened due to a lot of system issues, of course. And so, I saw a lot of teachers and social workers, especially, choose different careers, and sort of give up their pension, so to speak, or feel like they're only working towards their pension, but they don't really have full enjoyment of their career anymore. And so, that's really who I want to serve is educators who are kind of starting to experience burnout and some symptoms of burnout, and I really want to help them sort of kind of overcome that so they can reconnect with the work that they went into in the first place because they loved it. 

LEE: And it sounds like you have a really personal connection to this having been in that world for a while, you know firsthand what it feels like, and so you do bring a unique perspective as well as your own skills to really serve this population. 

MELISSA: Yes, I do. Actually, I feel like I can work kind of from the inside out if that makes sense. 

LEE: That makes a lot of sense. So let me ask you, we're going to spend the next 30 minutes or so talking today. What would be an ideal outcome for you at the end of our conversation? 

MELISSA: I think an ideal outcome would be for me to feel more secure, and really just diving into this particular population that I really want to serve. 

LEE: Okay, and if we were to kind of define how you're currently feeling or how secure you're currently feeling on a scale of one to ten – ten being the most secure – where would you put yourself on that scale?

MELISSA: Probably a six or seven.

LEE: Okay, so feeling kind of secure? 

MELISSA: Mmhmm. 

LEE: Okay, and what's a reasonable goal for us to hit, do you think, at the end of 30 minutes? 

MELISSA: I would like to be at an eight, maybe close to a nine. 

LEE: Yeah, so if we can kind of bump it up one or two notches on the security scale, we'll be in good shape then. Sound like a good thing to work towards?

MELISSA: That sounds great. 

LEE: Okay. All right. So, tell me a little bit about what you are currently offering to the educators you want to serve. 

MELISSA: Okay, so using your marketing matrix, which was in the Business Basics was super helpful. So before the pandemic hit, I used to go to the Illinois Association of School Social Workers, and present on compassion, fatigue, vicarious trauma, burnout, that sort of thing. And I am sort of a fanatic of neuroscience and so I bring a lot of that to my presentation. So the public speaking piece of education, that's big for me. I started a Facebook group a couple weeks ago, it's “From Burnout to Wellness”,  and so it's aimed really at educators. And the focus is for them to be able to have a community of people where they can offer tips, ideas, and I can share tips and ideas. I am very active in a few Facebook groups where I offer my sort of, I guess, for lack of a better word expertise, my training, my educational information I've collected over the past few years, and so I offer that in those Facebook groups. And then I have scheduled a webinar in the beginning of August, specifically for school social workers to help them as they return to school in the Fall. 

LEE: So it sounds like you have a lot of very valuable, free content that you're making available in a lot of different ways – the webinar, the Facebook group,  outreach – and so ideally, if someone engages with you in that way, what's the next step? How do they kind of stay in your world and even become a paying client? 

MELISSA: That's a very good question. The thing that I really would like to be able to offer is kind of the next step for them, which I think would be a, what I call a Wellness Assessment. But it's basically the Maslach Burnout Survey (Inventory) for them to be able to take – it's for educators and give them a kind of a baseline of where they're at. Then through that coaching, call with them after they take the assessment, to be able to help them define what may be their next one or two steps could be. Beyond that, I have a 10-week package that really gets more in-depth, of course, with their values, and their “Why”, and their health and wellness, and how that's impacted by their burnout or their disengagement at work, and then helping them work on the specific actions that they can do to benefit their wellness altogether. 

LEE: Okay, so it sounds like you have a pretty strong idea of the journey that your ideal client would go on. So there's ways for them to connect with you through your content, through public speaking, and then you have this assessment tool that you can offer, either as a standalone or as a lead into a longer-term relationship with you. 

MELISSA: Yes. 

LEE: Okay. So we've got an audience, and we've got an offer, and maybe what we need to spend a little time assessing is the fit between the two because what I'm hearing from you is that there's maybe a bit of a disconnect between who you want to serve, how you're positioning your offer, and that may be why you're not seeing the traction that you would hope. So let's kind of drill down a little bit into the message. When you are talking about what you do, how are you describing yourself and how are you describing the work? 

MELISSA: So I describe myself as having experience in education, and having experience feeling sort of stuck, and not feeling secure in whether or not this is something I can continue to do long term. As much as I loved working with students, I really struggled with a lot of the things I couldn't control, sort of in the system. So I sort of bring that to the table, as well as, I've really spent the past two years studying and really honing in on employee burnout, really, both at the corporate level and in education, and what that looks like. I bring that also up, that I have a lot of, not just I have the personal experience, but I also have a great deal of knowledge, book knowledge, if you will, from spending a lot of time researching this.

LEE: So you really bring the best of both worlds – you've got the training, you've got the book knowledge, but you also have the “in the trenches experience” that you bring with it. So it's this nice marriage of kind of the quantitative and the qualitative. 

MELISSA: Yes. 

LEE: Okay. Let me ask you, how are these educators describing themselves and what they're experiencing? 

MELISSA: So, teachers seem to have a different description of, for example, some related services. So what I have found is the social workers in the school struggle the most with wanting to support students and staff. Where I hear teachers talking a lot about their struggles with supporting themselves, and feeling very overwhelmed, between what administration requires of them, all the stakeholders require of them, and they feel very overwhelmed, and then they're not really taking care of themselves, and then they ultimately leave. And so. I hear a lot of the words like “juggling”, you know, “trying to juggle this”, “I'm trying to juggle that” – it's too much. Whereas I hear related services, they really just want to help and support, and they don't seem to be struggling as much with their own self-care as heavily as the classroom teachers. 

LEE: Okay, so it really sounds like you have two separate populations, then who are viewing this from two very different perspectives. Your social workers, your related services, they're more concerned about how can I continue to show up and support the students, and the staff and the teachers are like, “I am at my wit's end. I am juggling too much. I don't even know if I want to keep doing this anymore”. 

MELISSA: Exactly. 

LEE: Okay. So when we have two different populations, even if they're in the same physical location, it's sounding to me like we're going to have to kind of create targeted messages for each population, if you want to serve both of them. And I guess that's another question too is, are you interested in serving both teachers and the related services, or are you really leaning more towards one than the other? 

MELISSA: I have been open to both. However, I know that one population will be more difficult, more challenging, it will require much more behind the scenes work, I guess, to help them understand how to buy into the service that I can provide for them. 

LEE: Yeah, and I think you've just kind of hit the nail on the head of the struggle here, which is if you are seeking out an audience that is not yet…well, I was gonna say problem aware, and I don't think that's it. I think they know that there's a problem, but maybe it's solution aware that they don't understand what the solution is, or they're not at a point where they're able to make space for that solution. Then it's hard to kind of work against that energy of feeling like you need to convince or convert, and anytime we feel like we have to go out and sell ourselves, or convince people that we have the right strategy, or the right answer; that's going to create an energetic block, as opposed to finding an audience that is problem aware and solution-focused and ready. So that when you come in and say yes, and this is what I have to offer, then we have good alignment there. Now, I suspect part of what you're doing through your email opt-in and your public speaking in the webinar and so forth is trying to raise people's awareness, and that's a great first step. So if you are targeting this population that maybe is feeling a little resistant, then you can use those free ways of engaging with people to kind of build their awareness and their education. So we're moving them, in marketing speak, we're moving them from cold to warm. So when they're cold, they're completely not interested, not aware. You're starting to warm them up a bit, but what I'm hearing you say is that there's another audience that may already be a little warmer, and that could be potentially easier for you to get some traction with. Am I understanding that correctly? 

MELISSA: That is absolutely correct. You hit the nail on the head. 

LEE: Okay, so what's coming up for you, as you hear me kind of reflect this back then.

MELISSA: So, what comes up for me is, how hard do I want to work for a population or a demographic that is not ready to buy into the service right now? But perhaps continue to educate and inform this particular audience with what it could look like, sort of their dream, you know, how their dream could be found, I guess, so to speak, and then do more work with the demographic that seems to be more easily able to buy into, “I have an issue and I really want this to change, and so I'm going to be vulnerable, and I'm going to put myself out there and ask for help and assistance.”

LEE: Yeah, that makes sense. There were a couple things that were coming up for me too, as you were talking. The first is this one population that might be more difficult to work with. I'm kind of, if you could see me, I've got air quotes around the word “difficult”, not that they themselves are difficult, but it might be more of a challenge to connect them with the service you want to offer. You still have a couple options here, and I would be really interested in knowing more about what it is they think they need, because you may be coming in with one possible solution and one strategy that could 100% be effective, but if it's not something they think they need or that they're open to, than no matter how amazing it is, it could be a challenge to bring them in, versus if you meet them where they're at. So if they're not ready for one on one coaching, but say maybe they want some templates, or a workbook, or something else that can kind of meet them where they are, then you could consider whether you want to create that resource. It could be a paid resource, so it's still a way to bring revenue in, you're meeting them where they are, you're addressing their needs, and that still serves as a gateway to working with you one on one, if that's something they want to do after they've already kind of built that trust and connection with you. So that was one thing that came up for me was that we don't necessarily have to move 100% away from this population, but we may need to think about different ways of engaging with them, and I'm curious how that sits with you. 

MELISSA: Yes, I guess I never thought of it that way. Yeah, that makes absolute sense. 

LEE: Okay. So when we think about it through that lens, I'm curious if any ideas come up for you in terms of what might be an effective strategy to connect with them and serve them outside of say, a traditional one on one coaching relationship? 

MELISSA: Yes. So I sort of have this model in my head of what I want to eventually sort of publish – this wellness model. So I already have ideas of how I could sort of bring that down to something that's workable. For example, on my website, I created a six-page, sort of like a mini-guide, and it's like a little workbook so they can print it out, and it's for any educator, not just social workers, not just teachers, and it's supposed to give them ideas of things they can do over the summer to prepare them emotionally, and socially, and wellness wise, for the school year. So something like that. I hear from you, that would be, obviously, that's free, but something that's a little bit more in-depth that perhaps I could offer on a paid basis. Because I'll be honest, I mean, educators, whether they're teachers or social workers, are willing to pay for visual products, things that are sort of an immediate need for them, that they're willing to pay a little bit here and there out of their own pocket, that's just something that educators are used to.

LEE: Excellent and I was also thinking too, that you could create this beautiful visual guide, or even some slides or a mini-course to go with it. You may even want to make just the audio available, because I'm thinking educators are probably extremely busy, but if they're able to listen to something while they're in the car, while they're working on, you know, the house, whatever it is, if you can provide different ways that they can connect with your content, free and paid, then you may find it easier to connect with them. 

MELISSA: Oh, yes, that makes 100% sense. I don't know why I didn't do that. 

LEE: And this is why we have these conversations, right? Because it helps us kind of think outside the box. 

MELISSA:Yeah. 

LEE: So the other question I have for you. I mean, I'm not an educator. So I'm sitting here thinking, “Wow, a six page guide on how I can ready myself for the school year – that sounds pretty cool”. I'm curious what feedback you've received from educators whether that's a perceived need that they have, and if this is the right way to fill that need.

MELISSA: Good question. I don't know, to be honest, if that is a need, I did it really more because of the distance learning. I created it more so as a helpful sort of mini-project for educators at the end of the school year as they were winding down, and then by the time I finished it, it was summer, and so I changed some of the wording and I changed the title so it's more about summer. In all honesty, it's probably not. I've had three people download it so far, and they're all social workers. So, if that sort of, then again, kind of puts the hammer on the head of the nail, of the people who are interested in those types of activities. 

LEE: Yeah. You know, Melissa, um, can I share with you kind of what is coming up for me in my gut? 

MELISSA: Yes, please. 

LEE: Okay, I get the sense that you are an extremely compassionate, insightful person, and your priority is supporting these teachers so that they can serve students, and lead lives that are fulfilling, and so that they feel good at the end of the day – you don't want them feeling burned out and tired, and you don't want them feeling like they have to escape from a profession that once brought them a lot of satisfaction. And you've combined that with some serious book smarts like you know what works, and you know how to implement it. Where I'm sensing the disconnect is that I don't know if the educators are necessarily at that same point of understanding. And so, we talked about this in the Business Basics for Coaches Workshop, to quote one of my favorite podcasters and business coaches, Steph Crowder, of the Courage and Clarity podcast. She talks about “spinach and smoothie”, right? And sometimes we know what the spinach is, we know what our people need but they don't want to eat the spinach, we got to sneak it into the smoothie so that it tastes good so that it's palatable so that it's something they want to buy. And I think we may have a spinach and smoothie issue here. You're really strong on the spinach, and that's going to strengthen them in the long run and give them the nutrients they need to keep going – I'm not sure we have found the smoothie yet. What are your thoughts? 

MELISSA: I 100%. Agree. Yes. And you're absolutely right about the spinach in this smoothie. So yes, and I used to do that with my kids, put a little something in their pancakes, so they didn't know. Oh, yeah. So you're absolutely correct. It's just not something that they're aware of that they could really benefit from. 

LEE: Yes. So, how can we find out what they want? How can we get the right flavor of smoothie for them? That's going to make them say, “I need to have that smoothie right now. I need to connect with Melissa and get that immediately.”

MELISSA: Um, that is a very good question. I don't know that I know that yet. And maybe I do. And it's just in the back of my mind. And I don't know how to pull that out yet. Actually, as I'm talking here, I think some of the continued education in the Facebook group will help. I think maybe creating something like you said, something that is worthwhile for them, something like you said, that they can access. I know, a lot of teachers use and prefer podcasts over blogs. It's just easier for them to listen to in the morning on their way to school, or when they're washing their dishes or something at home. So I think, yes, creating something that is usable and educates them on the power that they have because I think a lot of teachers feel disempowered, and so I really want them to feel empowered, so they can help themselves, but it's just figuring out, what that looks like for them, is the tough part. 

LEE: Yes. And here's the good news, right? You don't have to figure that out by yourself. Because you are the expert in terms of burnout strategies and support, but they are the expert in their lives, and so let's go to the source. Let's approach this like we're investigators. This is a wonderful opportunity to go directly to those teachers and ask them, “What's your biggest challenge right now? What are you struggling with? You know, if I could resolve one issue in your life right now, that would create the most change, what issue would that be?”. And then we can go even deeper, we can ask them well, “What have you already tried? You know, because I'm sure you've tried something, what's worked, what hasn't worked?”. And we can really source that information from them, so you're not left wondering, what is it that I should provide them – they're going to tell you. So, I think when we combine your mastery and your experience with their language and their desires like that's going to be the sweet spot. So I'm wondering if it's possible to reach out to some teachers in your community and just say, “Hey, can we talk for 15 minutes? I'm working on something, I want to make sure I'm on the right track, and that what I'm creating is actually going to serve you, and I would love to get your thoughts and your feedback.”. Is that something that you'd be open to doing?

MELISSA: Oh, most definitely. That is most definitely something I can do. I feel very comfortable doing that, and I have a lot of teacher friends, you know, beyond colleagues that I know would be honest with me, and tell me what they think they need, and what they think even their colleagues would need. 

LEE: Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. In fact, I suspect you'll get probably more ideas than you'll even be able to implement. But that's good, right? We'll start with that. And then as you hear from them what they want, you're going to be hearing both the content, but also the language, and that is really important because that language is what you'll then use when you're talking about the work you do, and when you're talking about the free and paid offers that you have. And then from there, I suspect you're going to start to see themes emerge, so as you talk to these teachers, you're going to hear, “Okay, this person talked about that, that falls in this bucket, that's the self-care bucket.” and “Oh, this person talked about that, that's the time management bucket.”. You're gonna start kind of identifying common themes, or topics, or buckets, and then you can start to create content around those. And that's going to help you in terms of again, both the free and the paid content, and you're really tailoring it to this population because you're listening to them. And there's going to be opportunities for you to bring in your own experiences, to bring in your own knowledge to bring in your own inner wisdom, and say, “Here's how I approach this in my coaching practice, here's how I can support you.”. 

MELISSA: I love it. I love that. Absolutely. I love that. The concept of the buckets. 

LEE: Excellent. Okay. And I suspect you could probably come up with some possible buckets right now because, you know, this population, you've worked with them, you've worked alongside them. So I suspect like, if your gut is telling you something, I want you to honor it, but we also need to kind of backup our intuition with some external data – we want to make sure we are going directly to the source so that when we're creating something, it's going to meet them where they are.

MELISSA: Most definitely.

LEE: So what's coming up for you right now?

MELISSA: Um, I think excitement, because I have something that I can put into place, and I'm still reeling from the buckets. And you're right, I do just thinking about it, I do sort of have them that I could label, just hearing from the actual teachers, what's coming up for them, what they need, and being able to put them in there. And then like you said, that the language and the content can come from that. So that's very exciting because I really felt stuck. I thought I'll have to pick one or the other to market, but it feels like I don't have to do that now. 

LEE: Excellent. So maybe there's some more opportunity there, there's some room for you to be creative and explore. And anytime I get myself in a situation where I'm feeling like it's either-or, either I have to choose A or B – that's my signal that okay, Lee, I've got to step back, and I've got to look for the “both-and” opportunities. And I would say, that's probably the case for you, too. I suspect that a lot of these buckets that you're already brainstorming are relevant for both the educators and related services. Now, how you position that and how you talk about it may be a little different for each audience, but the underlying issues are probably quite similar, and so I would say, you know, this is where you can have a little fun and you can experiment and you can see what works and what doesn't, you can explore areas of commonality and then you can figure out where it diverges a bit so that you can meet each audience and each client where they are.

MELISSA: Yes, absolutely. Oh my gosh, this is so great.

LEE: Awesome. So let's take all this good stuff and actually make an action plan for you. So what feels like the next logical step for you to take?

MELISSA: So I feel like my, my next logical step is to reach out to teachers in my community. That's easy. That's, I feel comfortable doing that, so I will take that next step. And from there, I'm going to look for themes, I'm going to look for keywords – anything that sort of strikes me and start putting them in the buckets, and then be able to develop content around that, and use their own language to decide how to move forward and provide activities, or exercises, or audio files, templates, things that are easy for them to access that can help them right away. 

LEE: I love it. I love it. And it's called clear to me how well you do know this population because you're already thinking of different vehicles of getting that message out, whether it's through a template, whether it's through an audio recording, whether it's through a workbook, I mean, there's different ways that you can connect with them. And you know, in the Business Basics for Coaches Workshop, we talked about having a spectrum of services. Which giving the podcast listeners a little glimpse behind the curtain, I'll probably do a whole episode on this coming up in the future, but when you have a spectrum of services that runs the gamut between your free content and your high-end packages, and you've got different ways for people to connect with you, and be a part of your world at different price points, then you really open up different opportunities. So you might have a $27 workbook, or you might have a $150 single session package, or you might have a $5,000 six month package. I mean, it can really run the gamut, and so as you're doing this research and putting all these things together, you're going to be able to kind of create almost like an offer stack – you know where someone starts maybe at one area, and if they want to go deeper with you, then you've got other ways for them to engage with you. 

MELISSA: Oh my gosh, yes, this is amazing. Thank you so much. 

LEE: You are so welcome. So let's check back in on that security scale that we mentioned at the beginning on a scale from one to ten, how secure are you feeling now? 

MELISSA: I'm like at eight and a half. 

LEE: Okay, and we shot for eight to nine. Right? So we're doing okay. Anything else we could explore today that would make you feel even more secure moving forward? 

MELISSA: I don't think so. I think, you know, when you spoke to the continuum again, that was a really healthy reminder for me, because I've been looking at the matrix, and by hosting that webinar, I will have started four of those squares. And so I feel good, like being able to move forward and maybe start filling in some of those squares, and keeping in mind the continuum and so I appreciate that reminder of that, because I tend to get one-minded about what I can offer, and I know that I'm more creative than that. So that part of me that earlier I said, “I don't know where that's going to come from”, it's coming to me now. So I appreciate you helping me get those wheels turning. 

LEE: Oh my gosh, that's absolutely my pleasure. It's why I love doing this work, the way that we can kind of come together and collaborate and open some new channels so that you can tap into your creativity and your innovation. That's the beauty of coaching. That's why I do what I do. So I am so honored to have been a part of your process. Is there anything else that you need for our time together to feel complete today? 

MELISSA: No, I feel like this really covers what my dilemma was, and so you've really helped me with all that. Thank you. 

LEE: You're so welcome, and I hope you will keep me posted and I hope you will let me know kind of how things go as you reach out to teachers, and you get more information, and you start to really kind of put together something new for them.

MELISSA: I will, thank you so much. 

LEE: You're so welcome.

* * * * * * * * * * 

I can't thank Melissa enough for coming on the show. Melissa, I so enjoyed partnering with you and helping you move a little further up that scale of feeling more secure about your coaching work and your coaching niche, and I cannot wait to hear more about what you create. 

As you heard, Melissa participated in the Business Basics for Coaches Workshop that I ran earlier in 2020. I will likely be running another round of that workshop in the Fall, but you don't have to wait until then to gain access to all of the content from that workshop. In fact, it is included within a Special Bonus Course called Creating an Ethical Coaching Business, and that course can only be found in the Coach with Clarity membership. So if you would like to learn more about the spectrum of services that I talked about, or about the marketing plan that Melissa alluded to, you are definitely going to want to join the Coach with Clarity membership which you can do at CoachwithClarity.com/join. In addition to that bonus course, you will get access to monthly hot seat coaching sessions, monthly Q&A calls, guest expert trainings that focus on specific ways you can build your business, and you will get all of that within a supportive community of coaches who are cheering you on every step of the way. And what's super exciting is that this month, we have added a coaching contract template to the Coach with Clarity toolkit. One of the most frequent questions I was asked about the membership is whether it included a contract that you could use with your coaching clients. Well, you asked, I answered. I partnered with an attorney, and we created a coaching contract template that you can modify and use with your own individual clients. It is a huge added value to the membership and I am so excited to provide it to you. So if you are looking for training, coaching, support, templates, guides, and now a coaching contract, you can find it all in the Coach with Clarity membership. So head over to CoachwithClarity.com/membership to learn more, or if you're ready to sign up you can go directly to CoachwithClarity.com/join. 

Again, I want to thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the Coach with Clarity podcast. I will be back in your podcast feed next week with another episode but until then, my name is Lee Chaix McDonough and I am reminding you to get out there and show the world what it means to be a Coach with Clarity.