Lee: Well, hello Leonie, thank you so much for being a part of the Coach of Clarity podcast today. I'm thrilled to have you.

Leonie: Aw, it's a joy to be here. Thank you.

Lee: Yes, let's get right to it. I would love to learn a little bit more about you and the work you do for the world.

Leonie: Sure, I am the worst at elevator pitches. So I always just tell people, I've just some internet wanker. And when, like doctors and stuff ask me what I do, I tell them, I'm a porn star and that I am the number one rated autistic person on OnlyFans just to see, just to see if they can keep their cool, just keep their cool. Um, I don't know what I do. I write books. People use them to set their goals and stuff. And that's really cool. I think like half a million people now have used them, which is just magic and rad. And I like to talk a lot and teach a lot. And so I have a bunch of different courses about business and marketing and growing a good life and a good business. And yeah, that about does me.

Lee: Okay, see, what I love about you and your work is that you really do show up as you are, you know, there's there's there's no cultivated– or curated/cultivated kind of sense here. It's like this is you. It just, you exude authenticity and truth in the work that you do. And I can also understand why it might be a little difficult to narrow what you do to that short elevator pitch, because you do so much. I mean, I think you've, you have hundreds of courses, 1000s of blog posts, all sorts of ways you serve people. So you really are the epitome of that multi passionate entrepreneur.

Leonie: Yeah, yeah, I've never niched, I don't have a target market, I don't do any of that. It's just whatever I want to create next. I mean, and I'm like, I should say, like, along the way, like, I've achieved whatever the outside success part looks like. I've you know, won business awards, and I've brought in over like $13 million now, and I've only ever worked 10 hours a week, I have one part time assistant, and I've just worked out a business that works really nicely for me. Especially a me that is creative, and sensitive and autistic and has ADHD. And, you know, I have health things that prevent me from doing more than that. But I'm super cool with what I have been able to create.

Lee: Yes. When I think about your work. And I mean this in the best sense possible, I view you as like a maximalist, in that you don't have to niche down to a really narrow, specific scope. I get the sense that if you are called to create something or do something, you are going to do it. No holds barred. And it runs counter to some of the traditional “wisdom”, air quotes around that, that we hear in the online entrepreneurial space; this idea that you have to get really narrow and really focused. And then there's you and you come in and you're like, “No, not really, you don't have to. You can, you can do whatever you want in your business.”

Leonie: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think there's room for for both of those modalities. One doesn't cancel the other out. You can you know, if the other one works for you, freaking awesome. Like, oh, do it, do it. And if it if it doesn't work for you, though, just try something else. Like I always regarded as like, my ideal market is a person who's not turned off by my personality. And like, because my personality is like a little bit polarizing and that some people when they meet me, they're just like, “Oh my god, this is my person! This this this!” and I'm like, “Yes, that's correct.” And then some people are like, “What the fuck is happening here?” And I'm like, “It's fine babes. Like, there's so many like beige business coaches out there, just go talk to them instead. I'll be over here talking about vaginas and making foul jokes as I go along.”

Lee: And you are anything but beige. You only have to go to your website to see that, which of course we will have links to in the show notes, but the color and vibrancy just of your visual brand, it speaks to who you are as a person. And I think that's another thing I really appreciate is the consistency between who you are and how you show yourself to the world.

Leonie: Mmm, yeah, it's gotta feel all like me. Um, I remember that was maybe 10 years ago, because I've been doing this for so long. I've been doing this for nearly 20 years now. But I remember maybe 10 years ago, like, there was a specific brand for women business coaches, and it had like script font and a little bit of glitter and a lot of gold and like soft pink hues and stuff like that. And it was always like, you couldn't have a website, unless you had this specific look. And I was like, I could not, there is not one single part of me that was cool with that.

Lee: And I think that's part of your magic, you've been able to differentiate yourself from those boring beige business coaches, because you've really leaned into what makes you you. And as you mentioned before, when we do that, it can sometimes be polarizing. The people who get us really get us. Those are like our people, and the people who don't, well, yeah, they're not our people. But I'm wondering what it's been like for you to manage what comes up when someone's like, “Yeah, you are not my person.” Like, how do you, how do you go through that when someone's like, “Yeah, I'm not interested in what you have to offer.”

Leonie: Oh, I mean, I very rarely even kind of see that now. Because, you know, I was off social media for two years. But even now that I'm back, I don't really look at, like, the comments. And if there's people like that, they just get blocked and banned and deleted, like, because that's cool, like, go live your best life! If they email in, my assistants are going to read it first, and either does not respond because it's not useful. Or if there is a response required, then that'll be the case. But I don't really need to know. And I don't really care. It's none of, it's just genuinely none of my business. Because at the same time, I know that there's so many other people that are just like, “You, you, you are the one! Like you're the one I actually get.” And I appreciate that. I'm not for everyone, and especially not for men. Very much not for men.

Lee: No, I, and maybe that's one of the reasons why I appreciate your work as much as I do. And I feel like I really resonate with it, because there is kind of this like, no fucks left to give. If you're not into me, that's fine. Move on. I'm gonna spend my time and my energy on the people who are showing up who do want to connect with me. And it's, it's really a waste of effort to focus too much time on those people who don't really vibe with you or get what you're about.

Leonie: Yeah, plus it's a useless task, I'm never going to convince them that I'm the right person for them, because I am not. I would have to change my entire personality and everything. It's just like, “Go! Be with God! You know? Go find your teacher, like I release you with grace.”

Lee: Right? Like, there's a lid for every pot, and I am not your lid. So go find the better match for you. 

Leonie: Yeah, I won't be changing this pot size. 

Lee: Yes. So one of, one of the things that I really appreciate about your work is just how prolific you are. And we kind of mentioned earlier, you know, thousands of blog posts, hundreds of courses, you've been doing this for almost two decades now. And you've managed to do it while working 10 hours a week and rejecting a lot of what we typically associate with hustle culture. And I'm curious how you have found that balance. How are you so prolific? And yet also really careful about the time you invest in your business? Like what, what does that look like for you?

Leonie: Oh, you know, the 10 hours a week has just been a natural occurrence constraint that was put on, put on me. It wasn't something that I particularly invoked. It was just the natural order of life. So for a really long time, I was building my business while working full time for the Australian government. And so it was just built either at night times or maybe a bit of time on the weekend or whatever. And I'm very risk adverse. So I didn't leave my job for my business for I don't know, maybe eight years? And I'm very grateful for that experience. So I instead I think very careful about what I do in those, in that time, in that short amount of crafted time to be able to make maximum impact from, with minimum effort, you know. I have to be, I know that creativity is the engine of my business and so I place a lot of priority on that. And I think the only way that I've been able to create what I've created in the time that I have is because it's a very long to-do list behind me that just hasn't been done. It hasn't been important enough. It's just busy work. So I'm not going to do it.

Lee: I identify with that long to do list. In fact, I have the questions for our interview on my iPad, and like, right next to it is that long list of to-dos, and some of them get done, and some of them don't. And I think it is a practice to figure out, what can I release? What are the, what are the “Maybe yeah, this would be nice, but it's not really where my attention is,” versus “This is what I have to do to foster my creativity to maintain my boundaries to ensure that I can keep showing up for my people in my business day after day.” And certainly, creativity is something I associate with you and your brand. And the way you just described it as being the engine of your business, I think is a really beautiful way to approach that. I'm curious if there are specific practices, or even ideas that you incorporate into your day to day operations, so that you can continue to foster and nurture your creativity?

Leonie: Oh, well. So firstly, there's this quote by Austin Kleon, that “Problems of output are usually problems of input.” And what that means is, if you're having issues with creating, it's probably it may be due to the fact that there's you don't have good data going into your system. So that means, you know, are you taking time for beauty? Are you reading or looking at things that are inspiring and thought provoking and make you want to create? And, you know, also, if you're burnt out, then good luck Chuck! Like that's, it's difficult to create in those circumstances. So for me, I have to be really careful about what's going in. That means that, you know, even though I'm kind of back on social media now, I'm not on there to consume content, I'm there to create and just throw it out there. But I am not there for the endless scroll. So I don't have those things on my phone. And I noticed that when, you know, I was on social media too much and doing that endless scroll, it really reduced my creativity because I was like, “Well, everyone else is doing so much stuff, I don't really need to, you know, offer my voice up to the world.” So that format isn't good for my creativity. But reading other people's blogs is massively inspiring. As soon as I read other people's blogs, I'm so itchy to create. So yeah, I think that's a particularly important tradition for me.

Lee: I really appreciate the intentionality behind what and when you consume content. You know, what types of content that you know, feel expansive and inspiring versus the kind that can actually inhibit creativity. And it's interesting, because, for the last few years, most of what I've read has been personal development, self help, business, like all related to coaching and online entrepreneurship. And I set an intention for this year that I was going to focus more on reading for pleasure. And I was going to read every day, even if just for 5 or 10 minutes, but every day I was going to read fiction, just something that was light and that lit me up. And here we are early February 2023, this is my grand experiment, we're 36 days in and the connection between reading for pleasure and generativity and creativity not just in my business, but in every aspect of my life has been so powerful. And I'm on this exploration of the connection between pleasure and prosperity. Because I think there's a direct correlation between the two that when we are able to do things that bring us pleasure, that inspire us, that make us feel connected to ourselves and other people and to spear all of these things, then that is going to show up in the other areas of our life, including our business. And so it is not slacking off. It is not, you know, not prioritizing the right things. For me, for me, it's through reading but I think whatever ways we can find pleasure in our life that is going to bear fruit in our businesses as well. 

Leonie: Agree. 100%. You know, I think having so for me, like I always have solo mama retreat on weekend afternoons. And so what that means is, at some point I toddle off to bed to read a book, like 1pm. Or I'll do art journaling, or I'll take e-courses in bed, whatever, whatever I feel like will inspire me and nurture me and nourish me. And the kids go, you know, they play Minecraft with their dad, or they jump in the pool with their dad, whatever. I don't care because I am tagged out. And this is like, time for me to fill up. And I know that if I don't get those times in, it makes a massive difference to the rest of my week.

Lee: Agreed. So I want to ask you about how you approach sharing your work with the world, specifically, because again, when I think about you, I think about creativity, and just how prolific you are. But I also think about generosity, because you give away a ton of stuff. I mean, you've got that page on your website, free shit, and there is a ton of free shit that you are just giving away. And I would love to know how generosity also fuels your business? Because I think on some levels people might think, “If you're just giving stuff away, how do you profit from that?” But clearly, having made $13 million since the inception of your business, you are profiting from it. So how do you see the connection between being generous and giving things away, while also building a business that can sustain you and provide for you and your family?

Leonie: I just, like I just think generosity is a big key of it, right? I want to be able to build a relationship with people. So that they, you know, it's not just know, like, and trust, but they're just like, you know, they feel very gifted in that relationship, you know? It's a reciprocal relationship and I get to love up on them. And, you know, sometimes that's for money, and sometimes it's not. But it's building a long term relationship. My accountant said to me, “Leonie, usually when we look at, like, the customer relationship lifecycle in terms of like, when people come into the business, and then leave the business, you know, we look at months, but for you, it is, it isn't even just years, it's decades.” And it really is, you know, I've been doing this for, like, for two decades. And I have so many people still in my business from two decades ago, or people will like say, with pride, like, “Oh, I found you in this year. And this, like, that's how long I've been kind of following you.” And so, you know, I place a lot of importance on like, “How can I just continue to love up these people?” And so that when I meet people in person as well, it's like, you know, they usually are, you know, they adore me, and now I'm just kind of late to the party of getting to know their personal story. I get like, I love them already, but I want to know their personal story and get to fall in love with them and their story as well. And so it's just a beautiful relationship. And I think it's just fostered by this, this, the fact that I love creating, and I see the total joy in giving a lot of that away and gifting people and for people to be able to experience my work without having to buy it.

Lee: I can see how that would cultivate the old know, like and trust factors that we've all heard about. But on such a deeper level, where the people who are in your sphere, whether real world face to face in person, or virtually like me, they do get a sense of, “Okay, I know who she is, and what she's about. This is someone that I want to connect with and invest in.” And the fact that people are in your sphere for literally decades, I think speaks a lot to the integrity of your business and how thoughtful and intentional you've been about it from each phase. And you've been doing this quite a you know, as you said for almost two decades and I'm curious, like thinking back to when you first started. You know and looking at where you are now, what would you say are some of like the key milestones or even the key like aha moments you've had that have helped you sustain this level of success that you've had.

Leonie: The first one was definitely you know, in the beginning days. You know, it took kind of eight years plus to really get the business to a place where it was like, “Oh, it's a proper business!” You know? It was just a side hustle for a long while. And that turning point came, when I went for a walk one day, I set a goal that I wanted to earn $30,000 in the next year from my business, and I could not work out how on earth I'd be able to make that amount of money. I was like, that seems impossible. And I looked at the offerings I had at that time, and how much I'd need to sell of those in order to get to $30,000. And I was like, it's not making sense. And, you know, I think there was two options there, I think there was an option for me to go, “Well, you know, I tried, it's not going to work,” and give up. But my brain instead was like, “Well, other people have worked out this whole business thing. And so they must just know some things that I don't. Like they've got, they know, the keys to business, and I have spent no time learning the keys to business. I've been so just interested in creating and, and spirituality instead. So it's time for me to start going to the business gym and start. It's time for me to learn about marketing and build up those muscles.” And so I really committed myself to learning about business and marketing and implementing it and testing it and seeing what works and seeing what didn't. And it was a real, just a real massive turning point. And I did make $30,000 a year. And the next year, I made $60,000. In the year after that I made $120,000. It just kept on doubling after that for a really long time. So that was a really big lesson for me. 

Another big lesson, which felt less fun to learn, but I did anyway, at a certain point, my business was, I think we're nearly at $3 million a year. And in order to cope with that level of business growth, I had hired a large team. And so I had like 20 somethings staff. And I thought, “Okay, well, this, this is how it's supposed to go, I guess. Like that's how some success is supposed to look like for a really dynamic growing business.” But I realized, through that process, that I hated, having a large team absolutely hated it. And it was like, I'd taken my dream job and turned it into my nightmare job, you know, I wanted to run away from my own business. And that sucks, that totally sucks. And I realized then that that was not the path for me, I need to keep things streamlined and quiet in my own business so that I can, not quiet in terms of like my expansion, but quiet in terms of the amount of people in that business, like working on that business so that I can continue creating. Because when I had a really large team, I actually like admit that my hours to create were so reduced, because I was just in meetings and fixing so many fires, and building systems and things like that. And that's not, that's not my strong suit. So over the space of a few years, I right sized my business back. So when people left, I didn't replace them. And now I'm back to one part time assistant, and it is my sweet spot over and over again. I adore it. And it's the thing for me. So I had to realize that other people's business successes is going to look different from mine.

Lee: I really appreciate that. I think it's easy to get caught up in “Oh well, this person is successful, and they have a team of 50. And therefore for me to be successful, I need to work towards that too. That should be my goal.” And then you get there and you're like this is not at all what I wanted. And in fact, I think we run the risk as our businesses grow. We've got to be really clear on how much do I want to work in? And how much do I want to work on my business? And I think when you own a business to some extent, you have to do both. But to get pulled away so that all you're doing is management and administration and systems and processes and HR and getting disconnected from why you started your business in the first place that, that can be a real dark night of the soul experience. I know I've had some similar ones in my journey as well. So I really appreciate how essentially you are giving all of us permission to figure out what a right sized business looks like for you, how you want to show up and operate your business and to reject the notion that there is one right way to do it. Because there's not there's there's your right way for you. And there's my right way for me. And we can educate ourselves, like you alluded to really learning about the business and the marketing pieces that go into it, but then figuring out how do we use that wisdom and make it our own, so that we don't have to create an empire, according to someone else's liking. That we can really anchor into what makes us tick in our own businesses.

Leonie: Yeah, amen to that.

Lee: So speaking of that, I wanted to ask you, because one of in fact, I think this is where I was first introduced to you and your work was this idea of marketing without social media. You have a fantastic course about that. And you've always been really clear that social media is a tool for marketing, it doesn't have to be the tool for marketing. And you alluded to the fact that for a while, you did not do any social media marketing for a few years and now you're slowly returning to social media. And I'm so curious about that process. And and the decision making that went into, “Am I going to dip my toes back into the social media waters again?” So now that you're kind of heading back in like, what role do you see social media playing in your business? Or maybe the better question is, what role do you want it to play in your business?

Leonie: Oh, well, um, so I, you know, I didn't think I would go back to social media, you know, like, I've brought in over $2 million without social media, like just in the last couple of years. So I was like, “Nah, I'll be fine.” But I was feeling the itch to create more video. And I thought, “Well, I want to do video. I want to, you know, spread that video as far and wide as I can.” And some of that is going to be using social media platforms. And then I thought felt really stuck. I was like, “Oh, but I can't because I've made this commitment not to use social media marketing.” And it was just, I was head fucking myself over and over, like, well, “But I don't use social media.” And then I realized, like, “Leonie, just give yourself freedom just to experiment and play and see if see if you feel like doing that. And if it works great. And if it doesn't, you can just fuck it off again.” So that's what I'm just kind of doing at the moment, I'm just taking it easy, just testing it out. I would like for it to be a place where I just share creativity. And do it in a way that doesn't suck the living soul out of me or time, I'm not there to look at anybody else's shit. I'm just there just to schedule some like batch and schedule some some posts. And occasionally, I might pop into like connect as well. But I want to do it in a way that retains that sanity and that quiet that I discovered from what without using social media. So it's all an experiment, and whatever I'll learn, I'll tell all my people.

Lee: Which I can't wait to hear what gold nuggets come out of this. But I really appreciate the spirit with which you're entering into this, which is let's see how it goes. Let's try this out. And, and also not feeling like you had created this identity for yourself of “I'm not on social media, and therefore, I can't ever go back.” There's there's this fluidity that's like, “Hey, we grow, we evolve, let's try this out.” But yet, I also get the sense that like, you're also quite clear on how you are returning to social media. It's not an all or nothing thing. It's very mindful, it's very controlled. And the the objectives and the ideal outcomes are clear. And so it's not that doom scrolling, that mindless getting on and getting lost, but really bringing that intentionality to using these platforms.

Leonie: Yeah, I've got like 12 rules, like guidelines that I set for myself about how I was going to use it and interact. And I've been very, like public with those rules as well. And it's okay if I break them from time to time, but it's just a good, a good guideline for best use, basically, so that I can get the most joy out of it in terms of connection and creativity without the bullshit.

Lee: Yeah, yeah. That really resonates and I like the idea of having rules or parameters too, just to provide some structure. Because that's the other thing is we can get on social media and it can quickly become an unstructured. Just, you know, I mean, 

Leonie: Yeah. 

Lee: You get caught in the scroll, you get caught in comparison, you get caught by all these things. And so to have those guidelines in place to say, “I'm going to be really mindful about how I engage so that I don't go down that path,” I think is a really provocative way of engaging with social media and really runs counter to what the platform's want, right? Because they want you on there, they want your attention, they want you scrolling, because that's where then you'll see their advertisers and their sponsors, and so forth. And so for you to come in and say, “I am not engaging in this way, I will use this platform as much as it serves me until it no longer serves me and then then we'll find another way.” It's very radical, actually.

Leonie: Yeah. And like, I think for everyone who goes “Ugh, but I just spend so much time scrolling,” and like, “Ugh, but I don't do it,” Yeah, like, obviously, because that's exactly how it's been designed. Like, you're just like following the flow of how the software has been designed. So in order to craft a different experience, you do have to swim a little bit up, upstream. Give yourself some rope so you don't get swept downstream. And be very clear about your time. So for example, if I like I always have social media blocked on my computer, I do not have any apps on my phone for social media. And when it's time for me to do something on social media, I write a list first that stays next to me. And I like “Okay, those are the things that I'm going to be doing on social media.” And then I set a timer like you know, a 15 minute timer. And then when that goes off, then it gets blocked again.

Lee: Oh, I have a very similar one, how funny.

Leonie: The timer. It's critical.

Lee: It is, it is. I mean, I use my timer all the time, if only just to keep myself focused on the task in front of me and not getting sucked into something else. So I appreciate that as a tactic. My goodness, I have, speaking of time, I cannot believe we've been talking for over 30 minutes. This has been so much fun. I have really enjoyed connecting with you. And I know that the listeners of the Coach with Clarity podcast will want to learn more about you and your work. So what is the best way for them to connect with you?

Leonie: My website over and over again, leoniedawson.com. Go check out my Free Shit page. Get my newsletters, so people are always telling me that my newsletters are, they're the only one they read, their favorite one. They're funny, they're wise, they're helpful and they every time I create new free shit, I give it to you. So it's a bonded place to be. That's that's really the best place. Sure if you wanted to go check out some social media stuff, do that but eh. Like, you got to press like on like millions of people and then never see their shit again. So it's not the best place to stay in contact. And I also have a podcast if you like podcasts, it's called Leonie Dawson Refuses to be Categorised, and it's just me talking about whatever the fuck I want to talk about.

Lee: I love it. We will have links to all of that in the show notes. I will definitely recommend people sign up for your email list because your newsletters really are outstanding. I'm always excited when I see them land in my inbox. So, Leonie, I want to thank you again for coming on the show. It's been just such a delight to speak with you today.

Leonie: Aw, you're a babe. Thanks, Lee.

Lee: Oh my gosh, what an amazing conversation. I am so grateful to Leonie for taking time out of her week to be on the Coach with Clarity podcast. Such an honor having you as a guest. And I know that you are going to want to connect with Leonie and learn much more about her work, you can access all of her free goodies by going to coachwithclarity.com/leonie. That's l-e-o-n-i-e, so coachwithclarity.com/leonie, where you can sign up to access all of her free goodies, I know you are going to love them just as much as I do. 

I will be back in your feed next week with another podcast episode, taking a second look at what it means to share your voice and accept the vulnerability that comes along with it. So this is a follow up conversation to Episode 148, where we looked at the fear that comes from sharing your voice and being vulnerable. Next week, we're going to look at what happens when success comes as a result of you sharing your voice and how that may bring on a different kind of vulnerability. It's going to be a fantastic conversation and I hope you will join me for it next week. The episode will show up right in your feed if you have subscribed to the Coach with Clarity podcast. So if you've not yet done so, go ahead wherever you listen to your shows, just click the subscribe or follow or the plus sign button. That will ensure that the Coach with Clarity podcast shows up in your feed every week, and you will never miss an episode moving forward. I can't wait to reconnect with you next week. And until then, my name is Lee Chaix McDonough reminding you to get out there and show the world what it means to be a Coach with Clarity.