Lee: Well hello, Danait, I thank you so much for coming on the Coach with Clarity Podcast. I am so excited to welcome you here today.

 

Danait: Thank you so much, Lee. I'm super, super excited to be on the podcast. Thank you for having me.

 

Lee: Oh my gosh, my pleasure. I've been looking forward to this conversation because well, not only are you just an amazing human being, but we are going to be talking about something that is so important, really to every business owner. But I would say especially for coaches who are looking to stand out in a space that's becoming more and more crowded. So we're going to talk all about that today. But I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me first start by having you introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about who you are and the work you do for the world.

 

Danait: Yeah, I am Danait Berhe, I ran a brand and marketing agency called the Asmara Agency. And I typically work with a lot of women-owned brands and businesses on helping them really clarify their message and solidify their brand so that they stand out in whatever, whatever marketplace you choose to do their work in the world. So it's really fun, I love being able to bring people's visions to life like that.

 

Lee:And I will be fully transparent, I have had the opportunity to work with you, for my own business and brand. And I can attest to what not just a fun process it is, but how it really helps me speak with much more clarity and certainty about my business, about my work, and who I am. So you are clearly very good at what you do. And I'm curious, I'd love to know a little bit more about your journey and how you got to where you are today in your business.

 

Danait: Of course, first of all, thank you so much for saying that. That means that means a lot. And yeah, so my journey kind of started off a little weird. I'm not, I'm not I wasn't like a marketing major or something in college, I actually was going to school to- I wanted to become a doctor. That was something I was really passionate about. Because I felt like that was the only way that I could make a really big impact in the world. And so my family immigrated from Eritrea, which is in East Africa, and that was kind of like my big dream. And so I worked towards that, I got a degree in biochem. But I always really loved entrepreneurship, there was something about entrepreneurship that I just always loved. Even as a little girl, when I was three years old, I would pretend I would go to my family members when they're all sitting around and chatting, and this is before we came to America. And I would say something like, “Oh, I'm coming back from a trip as an American businesswoman. And I brought you all presents”. And I would like to say that I was like three. 

 

Lee: Oh, I love that so much. I could totally do that.

 

Danait: Yeah, so I didn't even know what that meant. But it was just something that had always been something I was interested in. And I actually started my first real business in sixth grade, selling bookmarks. I was a total book nerd. I love reading. And so I would make my own bookmarks and kids were like, “Oh, that's so cool. Would you make them for me?”. And so I made a few. And then I realized, “Wait, I can, I can charge them for these”. And so I would, it was so cheap, they were like 50 cents. And if you bought like a pack of four, it was like a dollar, or  something like that.

 

Lee: You were already doing packaged pricing. Even in sixth grade, basically.

 

 

Danait: I really was, I didn't even realize it. I hired my friends to help me out and I would pay them every week. Then the school was like, “Hey, you are making too much money. Like we can't have you doing this”. So I remember being in sixth grade and negotiating with the principal. And I was like, “Well, you can't like not let us do this. Like we love doing this. And it's like a fun project. And everyone wants our bookmarks. Like, you can't do that”. And so we negotiated. He's like, “Well, if you give us like 100% of everything you make”, and I was like, “No, I have things I have to pay for like laminating”. 

 

Lee:Right, you have overhead.

 

Danait: Like, that won't work for us. So I negotiated down to 70-30. Like we'd give the school 30% of what we made. So that was like my first foray into entrepreneurship, graphic design, all the things. And so yeah, I just kind of kept going down that path. In college, I took a lot of psychology courses, a lot of business courses, because I was always fascinated with how we make decisions, how is it that we communicate. And so that led into the, into the branding side of my business and being able to do all that graphic design work. But once I started really leaning heavily into messaging, I actually felt a lot of imposter syndrome around that because I had never really done any messaging courses or anything like that. And then I was reminded of the fact that I was an immigrant. And as an immigrant, I really had to figure out how to communicate with people in a way that they understood me, because we had different backgrounds, and I was going to school with kids who didn't understand my culture, and I didn't understand theirs and were like, “Okay, how do we communicate? How do we make friends?”. And so even being able to, like, help my parents, and communicate for them, and with them, and do all of those things. It was a masterclass in messaging and figuring out how to hold on to my own culture and my own identity, while also figuring out how to help other people understand me and who I am in a way that makes sense for them and within the context of their culture. And so that was an- once I realized that I was like, “Oh, I've been doing messaging my entire my entire life. This has been a masterclass in that”. And so that's really what has led me into messaging. It's something that I'm really passionate about, something that I just love doing. It's so fun being able to help people figure out what it is that they want to say in the world, and then how do they say it to people so that people receive it and understand it without losing who they are along the way, in that process. And so that's how the evolution of going from just like doing logos, and doing like my very first logo for $50. And the person was Canadian, my client was Canadian, and I completely forgot to make amends for the conversions. And it ended up being $39.46, and I was still like, “Oh, yes, this is good”. And so from that, to now helping people with figuring out their messaging, and positioning, and doing all of those behind the scenes pieces, that's kind of how that journey took place.

 

 Lee: Danait, oh my gosh, I love that story so much. And I think this is such a beautiful example of how oftentimes in business, we overlook our greatest strengths and our greatest experiences. And we have a tendency to think, “Okay, well, it's not technically business related, so it's not relevant”. And yet everything about your experience as an immigrant, and connecting with new people, and the other students in your class, all of that is relevant. And all of that helped you arrive at where you are today, which is using those skills to help other people do the same.

 

Danait: Yeah, yeah. And I just, it's so funny that we don't see that for ourselves, because I see that for my clients all the time. But once you see like, “Oh, okay, all of these bits and pieces really inform and make me who I am and how I show up in the world”, that really is so beautiful, when we can embrace that and use that even if it's not like the traditional background, or you don't have like the the exact experience or background as someone else in your industry who's doing similar things to you, or you feel like “Oh, well, I don't have all those same qualifications”. When we take a minute to just sit back and look at our life and our experiences, they really do come together in some way that leads to where we are today. So I love that.

 

Lee:I do too. I am also really struck by what you just said, which is that this is a strength for you. And it's something that comes naturally in your work with other people. And yet, sometimes it doesn't always come when you're trying to do it for yourself. And I know that's been my experience, too. And part of the reason why even though I am a coach, and I'm a coach trainer, and I've got certification programs, and all of that, I still work with my own coaches, because I do have blind spots. And there are things that I don't necessarily see about myself, or I can't figure out how to harness my own strengths for my own use. It's so much easier for me to do that for others than it is for myself. And I think a lot of us have that experience.

 

Danait: Yes, yes. And I think to me, and I love that you shared that example of like, I also work with my own coaches to help me see the things that I can't see, that was pointed out to me by my husband. He's like, “Wait, you've been doing this?”. Because I was like, “Do I need to get an MBA?Like, should I go back to school?”. And he's like, “No, actually, you've been doing this your entire life”. And I think that that's the beauty of our world, and even just being an entrepreneur, we can't solve all of the problems by ourselves. And it's a beautiful reminder that we all need each other, even if we have an expertise in something and we're like really, really good at that thing. We need each other to be able to reflect back to each other what we see in each other. And I just I always find that to be so beautiful and kind of an ironic little funny thing, that we have to sometimes look to other people and into our support systems to see the things within ourselves. So that's how I think that that's just a beautiful thing.

 

Lee: I do too. And I think on some level, at least for a while, I believed that it was a weakness. That because I couldn't do this for myself, then how could I be expected to do it for others? Or because I didn't have X, Y, and Z I somehow wasn't legitimate. And I think what I'm seeing more and more in the online space, and maybe even especially among women owned businesses, is that we're really embracing the totality of our experiences and our wisdom, and allowing that to really show up and work for us in our business. So yes, I mean, don't get me wrong, I value formal training and having a credential and all of that. But really, those just validate what I already know and who I already am. And so there there is a way to merge that external knowledge with that internal knowing, so that you can really show up and serve your people powerfully.

 

Danait: Yes, yes, I love all of that, yes. Because I also value formal training and education, I think it's so important, and especially growing up. How I grew up, that was something that was really highly valued, is having that formal training and education. I think where it becomes a detriment to our own ability to move forward with things that we know deep down that we're really good at and we're passionate about, is when we think that the rest of the world needs that validation of a certification or whatever for us to be able to do what it is that we're doing. And so when you see it as “Oh, this is an add:ition, this is something that helps hone what I already feel called to do”. That's a different perspective than feeling like “Well, I'm not qualified or called to do this yet until I have x, y, and z under my belt”. And so yeah, that's a really, that's a really great reminder, especially for women. Because I find that with a lot of my friends who are women, that that's kind of the general feeling felt. Like we had to have all these things, and all these experiences, and we discounted a lot of the things that gave us that expertise, or that know how, or just that that skill in the first place.

 

Lee: I think this is actually a perfect segway into talking about how we talk about ourselves, which is really at the heart of messaging. And we're going to talk about messaging and positioning today because you have such an expert authority in that. But before we even get into the how’s and the why’s, why don't we start with some basic definitions? Because when we're talking about messaging and positioning, I think those two concepts get conflated a bit. And so I'd love to just kind of break it down. What are we really talking about when we are talking about messaging?

 

Danait: Yeah, those are such great questions. So messaging is the big idea. It's the heart of what it is that you want to put out into the world. What is the big idea that you are sharing with people? What is the perspective or point of view that you're going to have on a particular problem that you're solving for people? And so to me, messaging is the big idea, what is it that I want to put out into the world?

 

Lee: So that I mean, my goodness. So that's really like the big picture, this is what I want to be known for. This is what matters most to me in my business.

 

Danait: Yes, yes. Exactly. Exactly. What is it that I want to be known for? What is it that at the end of the day, if I were to ask people like, “Okay, what is your, what is it that you're taking away from listening to me, working with me, whatever the case may be? What is that thing that we are communicating to, to other people?”.

 

Lee: So how does that differ from the second part of the equation, which is positioning?

 

Danait: Yes. So like you said, positioning and messaging get confused sometimes. And to me positioning is, so a lot of times we have this message that we want to put out into the world, right? And then we don't think about the positioning piece, which positioning to me is really about, how is that content or that message or that idea being framed, so that your audience is able to receive that big idea? So often, as business owners, entrepreneurs, visionaries, our message is very, very broad. It's very big. It's very, like a big picture idea. And we're just trying to like, get that out to people in that same way. Instead, we're not thinking about, how do I need to position or frame this message? How do I frame it? And it can be in bite sized chunks, it can be in wording, it can be in so many different ways. But how am I positioning and framing this big idea, so that people are able to understand and receive it the way that I'm intending for it to be received?

 

Lee: I love that you just use the word framed because immediately in my mind's eye I saw, and maybe this is a metaphor. You know, your message is a piece of art, like this is what you're communicating. This is what you want to be known for. And the positioning is literally the frame around that art. And sometimes a frame can actually distract from that piece of art, and make it look worse than it actually is. And sometimes the front can enhance that piece of art, so that it becomes an even more pleasurable experience for the viewer. And so all of a sudden, I'm like, “Oh, right. Okay. So the message then is what you're talking about, like what you want to be known for. It's the work of art. And the positioning then is what allows you to communicate it or to share it in such a way where it's going to be well received by your people”.

 

Danait: Yes, I love that analogy, the piece of the artwork. Because yes, so many pieces of art, the frame really makes the piece. Because you're like, “Wow, okay, this looks so great in this framing”. And other times, you're like, “Oh, that's an interesting choice for a frame for that piece of work”. And so yeah, that's exactly what we're doing when we're taking our message and we're trying to figure out, “What is the way that I can best communicate this to my audience?”. And it can be so many different things, like positioning could be a sales page, it can be your content, it can be how you chunk down the information and the message that you're trying to get to people. But really, how are we putting this in the context that they will understand and that they- and also in wherever they are on that journey of getting to that place that you're trying to help them get to, how are we framing that and positioning that message so that it gets to them at each of those stages? Those are such important and critical pieces to put together. And sometimes when we don't do that, we're just trying to get that message out without really considering how it's being received. That's when we run into those issues where we're like, “Oh, I don't think that people are really getting what I'm trying to say”.

 

Lee: That makes so much sense. And so, I suspect a lot of us are sitting in a position of being like, “Well, I I kind of know, like who I am and what I do”. But I'm curious,  messaging kind of goes a little deeper than that. And so when we're first trying to clarify our message, what would you say are some initial or some key considerations that we need to keep in mind in that process?

 

Danait: Yeah so for me, outside of just knowing what it is that you're trying to do, and what it is that you're trying to say in the world, I really like to call them key messaging decisions that you have to make. One of those is your audience. And I don't mean, you know, the demographics and where they live, or what type of car they drive. I think those are all very surface level and don't really impact messaging as much as we've been taught in the past to think that that impacts messaging, what really impacts messaging is understanding people on a deeper level of like, what are the challenges that they're going through in regards to what it is that you do? What are the desires they have around this thing that you do? How do you help them? How can you bridge that gap for them, right? So challenges, desires, really understanding those two pieces, for me are really critical. Because once you can understand people on that deeper level of knowing, “okay, this is what they're struggling with, this is what they're looking for this is the desire that they have, these are the things that are kind of standing in their way of getting there”. Once we can understand people, we come from such an empathetic place when we're framing that message. We're better able to frame it because we're like, “Okay, I know exactly where this person is in their journey. I know exactly what they're kind of experiencing and how they're feeling. And I'm going to frame this message that I'm trying to get to them in this way, because I know that that will be well received, because of where they're at and what they're thinking”. And so that is one key decision and really understanding that audience deeply. And then really understanding what it is that makes your offer, or what it is that you do, really unique. And to me, that's your approach. How is it that you approach it? Because so often we beat ourselves up, and I see a lot of my clients have done this in the past, where they're like, “I'm not sharing any new ideas or concepts about this thing, right?”. You feel like you have to come up with this, like revolutionary, revolutionary new theory or just groundbreaking things that have never been seen before. And I think that we discount the things that are- so like messaging, is messaging, right? And so a lot of times there's different ways to approach it. And I have a specific approach to how I approach it. And that is the magic and how I'm going to share that message and market what it is that you do. And someone else is going to share a different perspective on how they think you should message and market what it is that you do. And so I like to really rein my clients in. And if there are, of course, you're going to come up as you have expertise and as you have a depth to what you do. Which is why I love the work that I do because so many of my clients love to go deep with their audiences, and they like to go deep in terms of their own skill set, and they want to master what it is that they do. When you're doing that, you automatically are creating new ways and new perspectives of looking at things. And so, I like to take my clients and take a step back and say, “Okay, what are your perspectives on this thing, whether it's coaching people, whether it is marketing support that you do, or whatever it is that you're doing to help your clients, what is your unique perspective on the problems that they're facing and on the solutions that are available to them?”. What's your unique take, and really digging into that, and spending some time getting comfortable with owning those pieces. Those are the things that will really drive your messaging and make it very, very strong, is having a clear sense of who you're serving, how it is that you serve them, and why that matters to them. And once you can understand that, everything is built from that place. And I love that because it is a very customer-centric approach to messaging, we are literally looking at, “okay, what matters to this person? How can I communicate in a way that connects with them?”, and it's no longer about me trying to push my product or my service on them. It's no longer about me trying to, you know, get that next sale or hit that revenue goal. It's about, okay, how am I serving these people? And am I communicating in a way that serves them, not just my end goals, if that makes sense?

 

Lee: That makes total sense. So one of the things that really resonated with me Danait was when you were talking was the idea of making your message client-centered. Because as a coach, when I'm training other coaches, I talk about how we always center the client's agenda in every single session and in the coaching relationship as a whole. So we are creating a process by which we can guide the client through a series of questions to help them really get clear on what it is they want to accomplish, what a successful outcome looks like, and how we can work together to make that happen. And we do it in such a way where it's not centering our ideas or our philosophies, but it's really starting with where the client is. So this idea of centering the client in your messaging is so consistent with my approach to coaching, and really what I think is an ethical approach. Because it's not about us, it's not about our needs, it's about really focusing on the client first.

 

Danait: Yes, I love that, I usually find a lot of my clients and friends who are coaches that is, you know, that philosophy around centering the client, and really trying to pull out of them what's already there. And then just using those tools to help them get to where they're going. So I love that it resonates. And yes, like any time that we center the client, any time that we start with that in mind, the messaging then becomes something that gets easier with time. It's not, it's definitely not easy sometimes to kind of get all of your ideas and try to, you know, make sense of them. Because we are visionaries, and so a lot of times, our thoughts and our ideas about what we want to share and all the things we're so excited about, they sometimes might feel like they're all over the place. But once we start to filter them through the lens of, “Okay, I want to approach this idea that I want to get across or this perspective that I want to share with my audience. And I want to make sure that they're receiving it, thinking about where they're at, and what they're thinking through what they might be experiencing, what questions they might have around what it is that you do”. Once you start to filter what you're trying to say, through that lens, then it becomes really fun to do messaging, and it starts to it starts to become a conversation, which is exactly what we want, is to open up doors of communication and conversation with our audience. And we can only do that when we're communicating with them in mind, not just with our own ideas of what we want to get across that may be good and well. And we might get across that idea, but we have to do it from a perspective of how can I center them in this message, and how can I center their experience, their thoughts, their questions in this message? And that will take your message so much further than just trying to say it in the way that you think is best for it to be said, if that makes sense.

 

Lee: That makes total sense. And it strikes me that this is really about creating a dialogue. So that messaging is not a one way communication. It really is an invitation then to connect with your ideal client and then go the next step. Whether that's booking a call, whether that's working with you, whatever the ideal end result is, we're doing so in such a way where we're fostering that relationship and opening the lines of communication.

 

Danait: Exactly, yes, that's exactly what we're doing. And that's to me, that's the entire sales process. That is what my philosophy has always been in sales. I've done sales for a for a decade, and my husband is in sales, and so we talk about sales all of the time. And what I love about this approach to selling is that it becomes a conversation. That's when you don't feel sales-y when you sell, because you are just having a conversation. It's kind of like if I came to you, Lee, and I was like, and that's why I say you have to have a strong perspective and a point of view about your work, and what it is that you do, and how your approach is unique. Knowing that, and knowing your audience, allows you to share with them. It's kind of like me saying, “Hey Lee, I think that, you know, this is my perspective on messaging, and this is kind of what I think, and I really strongly believe that this is the way that I think you can get really great results with your messaging”, and you're going to then respond and say, “Oh, that's interesting, I hadn't really thought about that”. Now we're opening up that dialogue, or you're going to say, “Hmm, don't really agree with that, don't love that”. And that's a form of communication as well with your audience. And the ultimate goal is to get people to make a decision. And that decision is either a yes, you are the right fit for me, I want to work with you in this capacity, and I think that you have a really great solution and process to help me get to the transformation that I want. Or it's going to be no, this isn't really what I'm looking for, this approach. And your perspective isn't really the one I'm looking for to solve this problem. And that's totally okay. That's what messaging should do, though, is it should allow you to have conversation, it shouldn't just be something we're kind of screaming out into the void and hoping and praying that it works. It's supposed to be something that allows conversation to happen. And then that conversation will organically lead to what it is that is going to happen next, like you said. Whether it's working with you, whether it's booking a call, whether it's joining a program, whether it's just building that relationship that leads to collaboration or something in the future, that's what we want our messaging to do. And when it's customer-centric, it allows for that conversation to take place.

 

Lee: And then we come in with part two, right? Which is the positioning. So the messaging component allows us to really anchor into who we are, what we do, how we do it, why it matters, and we're centering the client in that process. Then positioning is more about the mechanism for communicating that. Is that correct?

 

Danait: Yes, yes. So positioning to me is all of  the nuts and bolts of how you're going to get that message out. And a lot of times that will look like deciding on what avenues and what platforms will you use to get your message out. So that's like an overarching decision, right? I'm going to use Instagram, or I'm going to do Lives, or I'm going to do a podcast, that is the way that I want to share this information. And then from there- so that's a big one. That's like the big overarching thing. And you kind of, I like to think of it as like a funnel or kind of having a bird's eye view, and then zooming in, and zooming in, and zooming in. And so from there, you're going to decide on “Okay, what are the pillars of my content? What if I can take my messaging and break it down into three to four little chunks? What would those overarching ideas be?”. So now we're kind of giving form and shape to how we're trying to communicate with people. And then from there, we're going to craft the way that we're going to say things, are we addressing questions? Are we giving a new perspective? And are we sharing a new idea? Are we sharing what our unique solution and perspective is to solving that problem? Are we helping them see what could be possible by solving this problem? What is it that we are doing? So we're taking it from “Okay, this is the way that I'm going to share my content”, to, “Here are the ideas, the big pillar ideas that I want to get across”. And then from there, we're going to distill it down into actual content pieces, and really focusing on one a purpose for each piece of content. Whether that's addressing a question that people might have, sharing a perspective that it might be new to them around their problem, sharing desires, and really reflecting back to them what they're hoping to accomplish by solving this problem, and what can be possible for them, those and then really kind of getting into those nitty gritty pieces. To me that's positioning, because now we're framing, we're taking that big idea, we're taking all those things, and we're framing it up into bite size pieces that will be received by the people who are listening to it in a way that we actually want it to be received. And we're not overwhelming them. We're also not including things that aren't necessary, or don't need to be shared, or really distilling down our message. And that's where that consistency and that messaging- like that's when people get to know you for “Yep, Lee does this, I know exactly that piece of content because she's always talking about these things over and over and over again”, that’s what gives focus to that vague idea.

 

Lee: That makes so much sense. So when we're talking about those three, four, maybe five content pillars, it's almost like those are the lenses through which we're viewing our message. And it gives us something a little more concrete to talk about in context of this is what I stand for. This is what I believe in, this is the work that I do. So we've got those pillars that help bring the shape and the definition to our message. And then from there, we can decide how I want to disseminate this message? Do I want to be on Instagram? Do I want to be on LinkedIn? Do I want to have a podcast? Do I want to have a blog? Like all of those things are the tactics that come from that larger messaging strategy.

 

Danait: Yes, exactly. And all of those things will be informed by who you're trying to serve. So if you know that your audience is on a specific platform, that will inform what platform you're going to be on because we are approaching our messaging and how we position ourselves from a customer and client-centric place. And so yes, then all of those things, those positioning pieces, and those decisions you'll make around your positioning, are all going to come directly from what we know and understand about our clients. And so yes, then it helps you to inform like, okay, where will I show up? I find that that's so freeing for so many people, because they find that they don't need to be everywhere, or that they don't have to be on a platform they don't love, or that they only have to do this when they're like, “Oh, yeah, my audience only shows up in this one place”, and it's like, “Okay, then just go do that you don't have to do all the other pieces”. And it's such a, it's such a wonderful way to make those decisions, instead of starting with those decisions first, and overwhelming yourself in the process sometimes.

 

Lee: Exactly. We don't have to do all the things. We don't have to be in all of the places. We really can focus our efforts on those tactics that are going to work best for our business, that is liberating. It really is. I'm curious, in your experience, if you have identified any common missteps, or even mistakes that people make when it comes to their messaging and their positioning.

 

Danait: That's a really good one. So one of the big ones that I see from my clients, and even from myself, like in the early days of my business, is looking to other people and seeing what's working for someone else, and thinking that that messaging structure and that messaging strategy is going to work for us. And so we start to adopt the voice, the writing style, the communication style, the content of other people that we think are like, “Oh, that's really working for them, I really need to apply that to my business”. And then it doesn't work. And we start to lose ourselves in the process of our message. Which is what I find a lot with people when they're like, “I don't even know what I'm trying to get across. But I'm confused by what I'm trying to tell people. And I don't know if it makes sense to people, what I'm trying to say”. And that usually happens when we don't look within ourselves. And for that, I usually recommend trying to understand why that thing is working for someone. Because they're probably using messaging strategies, maybe they're really funny. And that's the thing, they include a lot of humor in their content. That doesn't mean that you need to adopt exactly everything that they're doing, or their messaging strategy, or how they communicate, or how they put things out there. But you can take and say, “Oh, okay, I think that humor is something that I enjoy, my audience might be similar to me, and that they enjoy humor as well. I'm going to try and infuse that in my own way, through my own message, through the things that I want to share”. And so that's one of the things that I always see is people losing their own voice in the process of messaging. And then really, the other one is sometimes we lose sight of again, that customer centric approach, and we lose sight of the results that we want. With our messaging, especially in the age of social media, so many people are like, “Well, I want this piece of content to do really well, I want all this engagement”. And we're so focused on the results that we want to see, that sometimes we don't take time to analyze the feedback that we're getting from our own content. And feedback is not just data, it's what people say when you post something. And this is where my scientific background really comes in. Really trying to figure out what is really resonating, what are people saying when I share this piece of information or this message with them, or this piece of content, or this interview that I did? Like how are people responding? How are they taking this in? And once we can dial into that instead of focusing on the outward things that sometimes we're too focused on, you know, our likes or comments or reshares or whatever. We're then able to start to pivot our message based on that feedback, and based on that data, in a way that starts to get us the results that we want. And so, so often I see that one of the big ones is like, “This content isn't working, or this message isn't working, I really need to, like redo everything”. And I'm like, “Well, what is your audience saying? Like, what's the feedback? Are you having conversations? Is it opening up the doors to conversation? Where are those conversations leading?”. All of those pieces, once we can start to really dig into that, that's when we can start to see some of the results that we want because that's where the answers lie, not in the end result. Which are, you know, the analytics that we're kind of diving into. So those are the two big ones.

 

Lee: And I mean, and I see them as being interconnected as well. Because with the first one, sometimes there can be a fine line between being inspired by someone and then replicating what they're doing. And so to your point, yes, if you can kind of get a broad idea of why something is working for a person, and then look at what would it be like to incorporate that through my perspective, with my strengths and my style, then we can be inspired versus trying to be a carbon copy of them. Which never comes through as authentic. And then once we feel more comfortable with our own style, our voice, our messaging, then it's about putting it out there and really paying attention to how it's landing with our clients. Both quantitatively I mean, we can look at numbers and downloads and all that good stuff. But also qualitatively, how are they talking about us? What feelings Are we engendering in them? What kind of follow up are we getting? So there's, there's all sorts of things that we can measure, before we decide, “Okay, I'm just doing everything wrong. And I've got to trash it all and start from square one”.

 

Danait: Yeah, yes. And I, I love numbers. I'm a spreadsheet girl, I have a spreadsheet for days. So I love all the numbers and data. But I think so often, we miss out on those subtle things that are actually a win in our book. And could be something that we're like, “Oh, okay, like these people who I would love to work with really resonated with this, it didn't resonate with everyone. But it really resonated with these people because they reached out. There's something there, I want to figure out how I can better position and frame that so that the broader audience that I have kind of gets what I'm trying to say here as well, because I think this is so important to get across”. And really looking at it from that lens. And I think messaging is something that's always changing something, that's always something you're always going to be working on and tweaking, and it's never going to be something that is a one and done thing. I always tell my clients that this is something that you will test and retest and put out there. And so it is a big, big lesson and test of resilience of like trying to say the same thing over and over in a million different ways until you find that thing that you're like, “They finally get it. Okay, this is the way that I wanted to frame this”. And so yeah, that makes it less pressure, there's less pressure when you see it that way.

 

Lee: Yeah. And that makes sense. Because we're humans, we evolve, we grow. And as we evolve, our businesses are going to evolve and our messaging will evolve to so the idea that this is a continual refinement process, I think is spot on. And it doesn't mean that you're doing something wrong. It's just our businesses are organic beings. And so as they shift and change, our messaging and positioning may need to as well and that that's okay, that's part of the process.

 

Danait: It definitely is. And I want to say that a lot of times the set messaging isn't what changes for people, because a lot of times we come in as entrepreneurs with such a strong vision of like, this is what I want to get across, the way that we do business or the offers that we have, and things like that might change along the way. But even if it's like, “I've been trying to say the same thing for like years, I don't know why”. It's usually that positioning and testing out different ways to frame the thing that you're trying to say, in a way that gets across to people. And of course, yes, messaging does change, like your overarching idea, or the thing that you're trying to get across, will change over time. But I find that most of the time, it's usually positioning and that's where people think that it's the message and you start from scratch over and over instead of just tweaking some of the framing pieces that we talked about to see, hey, will this work or will this one tweak to how I asked this question work. And instead playing with that, you don't necessarily need to start from scratch every single time you feel like this isn't- I see that a lot with launches where people are like, “Okay,  change the whole business like we're gonna do, we're gonna we're gonna do everything all over again”. Or you know, an offer that you put out, and like maybe it's just that it's not really the big idea or the message, it's just some of those like framing, or  it's the platform you're using, or whatever it is playing with that sometimes is where some of those big shifts can happen. 

 

Lee: That makes so much sense that, oh, that's that's a huge takeaway so that often it's not necessarily the core message that needs to shift but rather the framing the positioning. Oh, Danait, I could talk to you all day. I wish I could.

 

Danait: I wish I could talk to you all day.

 

 Lee: Oh my gosh, this has been phenomenal and I have a feeling people are probably going to want to talk to you more about messaging and positioning. So why don't you let us know how we can best connect with you and where can we find you?

 

Danait: Yes, you can find me, most of the time I'm on Instagram @Danaitbg. And I love chatting in the DMs and connecting, so feel free to reach out and connect with me there, or you can find me on my website TheAsmaraAgency.com as well.

 

Lee: Excellent. And we will be sure to have links to both your website and your Instagram profile in the show notes so people can find you there. Danait, thank you so so much. I really enjoyed our conversation today.

 

Danait: Thank you so much for having me. It was so much fun to have this conversation with you. I am truly honored to be here. So thank you.

 

Lee: Oh my gosh, my pleasure. Thank you.

 

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Danait as much as I did. And it's interesting to me because I've known Danait for a while, and I've worked with her individually. So I did one of her VIP half day intensives to work on my own messaging and positioning. It was an extraordinary experience, 10 out of 10 recommend. And yet, even though I have known her and worked with her for as long as I have, I learned so much during our conversation today. The idea of positioning being about creating a frame for your message is such a simple and easy way to view this process. And I don't know about you, but it can be really easy to overthink things when it comes to talking about what you do and figuring out the best ways to disseminate that information. Danait breaks it down so easily. And I am so grateful to her for coming on the show and sharing her wisdom with us. That is it for me this week, my friend. But as you know I will be back in your podcast feed next week with a brand new episode of the Coach with Clarity Podcast, so be sure you are following or that you are subscribed to this podcast. That way the next episode will appear in your feed automatically. You don't have to do anything. It'll be right there waiting for you. So until next week, my name is Lee Chaix McDonough, reminding you to get out there and show the world what it means to be a Coach with Clarity.