Lee: Well, hi, Laura, thank you so much for coming on the Coach with Clarity Podcast.

 

Laura: Hi, Lee. Thanks for having me.

 

Lee: I have been looking forward to this interview for weeks. I devoured your book, Radical Healership, and I am so excited to talk to you more about it today.

 

Laura: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. I'm excited that you enjoyed it. And I'm also eager to talk about it. And you know, I love talking to other practitioners about how they experienced the book. And yeah, just kind of diving into the material.

 

Lee: Excellent. Well, I can already tell this is going to be a fantastic conversation. But before we get into all the good stuff, I would love to just learn a little more about you and the work you do for the world besides writing a fantastic book.

 

Laura: Yeah, so I'm a psychotherapist and I practice, I'm trained in somatic psychotherapy, relational psychotherapy, and then I'm also trained to be a ketamine assisted psychotherapist. So I practice all three of those sort of modalities intertwined. And then I have a podcast that's about people using psychedelics and entheogens to heal sexual trauma. And I would say just sort of generally, I'm very interested in supporting survivors of sexual violence, but also just sort of preventing harm, like supporting us to heal to the point where we maybe won't be causing so much harm to each other in the world. I’m very politically minded. And then, you know, I have my book, which Radical Healership, which is a lot about inviting healing practitioners to do their own healing work so that we can sustain ourselves in our paths and also so that we don't hurt ourselves or others in what we do.

 

Lee: That's really one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the show, because we have spent a lot of time looking at what it means to be trauma sensitive, and what trauma sensitivity looks like in coaching. And a few months ago, I had my friend and colleague Lisa Kuzman on, she offers trauma sensitive coach training, and she really differentiates between trauma sensitivity, and being trauma informed. For her, trauma informed is very much limited to kind of the mental health sphere, and it's more treatment oriented, whereas everyone in the world can be trauma sensitive, if we understand what that looks like. And I think that's really something, I could see that that was a lens you were looking through when writing this book. And so I'm just really excited to kind of deepen the conversation around that as well.

 

Laura: Yeah, great, that's great. I like that distinction. And this is something I'm really interested in. Because, you know, sometimes when something like a concept becomes popular, and then more and more and more people start using the idea, or the idea gets sort of, there's a way it can get watered down. And at this point, I feel, you know, people will say they're trauma informed, because they know what trauma is, as opposed to having training in it or having some actual skill set around it. And I just think this is a really critical conversation for us to be having, because that is not something we want watered down. When somebody says that they're working with trauma that needs to mean that, you know, there's actually a skill set there that is, quite frankly, really hard to learn, it takes a lot of dedication to learn. It's not simply just like, looking at an Instagram account that sort of has like trauma blurbs, which are useful, but I mean, that's just not enough training. So yeah, and I agree, you know, I think all of us can be more trauma aware, just as people.

 

Lee: Absolutely. So, um, I love talking to writers and authors. And I think it takes a very special kind of person to decide, “You know, what, I'm going to do this. I'm going to take all of the thoughts in my head, I'm going to put them on the page, and I'm going to share them with the world.” And the whole process of writing can be unique from from writer to writer, and I'm just really curious, what was it like writing this book? What was that process like for you?

 

Laura: Yeah, such a good question. And, and I hear you, you know, I think in the past I had thoughts like, “I bet I bet I'll write a book someday,” or “I could write a book someday” or “I feel like I have enough to say that I could write an entire book.” But the idea of, of actually doing it. There's like this sort of daunting like, but how? How does it actually happen that the book is sort of like comes to creation. And what I'll say is, I feel like how it happens is that you just dedicate the time and it's it's truly kind of brutal. I mean, it's amazing and beautiful and I want to write another book, but there is something about just being willing to sit in front of a computer which is what I wrote my book on and and and be like, amazing in moments and mediocre in moments and write things that you're actually going to have to delete later, like are not very good and then kind of have your breakthroughs and I mean, it's it's such a roller coaster process. Yeah, and you know, I'll say a little bit about sort of, so I had plans to write a different book. I wanted to write a book that was more about the issues that I, I put out in my audio series/podcast, Inside Eyes about sexual violence and psychedelics. And then this very random thing happened where I had made an online class about, like building a practice and similar themes to the book. But this very random thing happened where a publisher reached out to me and they had seen the online class, they had seen the just the little tiny blurb video that I had made to kind of like, promote it. And they were like, “Do you want to write a book about this?” And so, I mean, that's never happened to me before. Publisher just said, “Hey, do you want to write a book?” Obviously, there's a whole process to that. And for people who are interested in writing books, and publishing and you haven't, if you haven't done it yet, the you know, just because a publisher asks you about this, you do still have to write a whole to write sample chapters that they can kind of know a little bit more about your actual capacity to write. But so I just sort of pivoted and like, moved into this book, because it seemed like a really exciting opportunity. I really liked the publisher. I mean, the whole process with them was amazing. Yeah, and it also just invited me into a place of, like, sometimes I feel that, if I get too focused on like, exactly what I want to do, I miss all the opportunities that sort of present themselves in life.

And, and there's also I mean, I feel like I'm always kind of balancing this between, like, be open to what's coming to you, and also shape your own life. So like, just because, you know, 30 people might ask you to do the same thing, that doesn't mean that that's what you are actually meant to do. And a lot of times people ask us, like, I mean, for example, as a person who is socialized as a woman, like, you know, people ask me all the time to smile for them, or take care of their emotions in ways I don't want to, all kinds of things, you know, and it's like, yeah, like, shape your own life. Like, I don't just do that. That's not the world calling me to do, you know, a service anyway. So, um, so yeah, I decided to go ahead and go for it. But because I was writing the book, and you know, I had already made the online class, I just kind of was like, I want to go all in on this book, I want this book to be something that, you know, with an online class, I can always like reshoot something or move something, take it down, whatever. With a book, like, I cannot rewrite a chapter that I just felt like, wasn't strong enough. So I really just wanted to go all in. And for me, that meant having a really strong political lens, and really inviting people to think about healing, through sort of, like understanding it, and its political context, both historically, and then also, really understanding the significance of what it means as a healing practitioner to do your own healing work and how I feel that that like us as a, as a group of people, we need to do our own healing work. We are, if we want to live in like a less sort of toxic world, as many of us want to, we are part of, like, we're part of the delivery system of that being a, anyway – So basically, this is this is sort of like the the process of just kind of like, I really wanted to go so much deeper than I had been in the online class around the political stuff. And then yeah, just setting aside a lot of time, I wrote this book during the pandemic, during like, the parts where we were in a lot of quarantine and we couldn't travel places. And I would do like a writing week and take a week off for my clients. And people think this is absurd, I would just turn my internet off, and turned my phone off for a whole week. And that would be how I would create my like writing retreat. And you know, and I people say it's like hard to write at home, because you're distracted. I mean, I definitely had a lot of sort of process of making the home a non-distracting place. But that was probably the biggest thing is to turn off all the internet connection.

 

Lee: I don't think that sounds absurd at all. It does give me heart palpitations a little bit. But I also understand the importance because I know when I'm in content creation mode, whether I'm writing or working on the podcast, I really have to limit my consumption. Like I think there's a time to consume content. And then there's a time where we really do have to turn the volume down on other people's voices so that we can really tap into our own. And it sounds like that's what you were able to do in the process of crafting this book.

 

Laura: That's so true. And you know, like I am, I love information. I'm an information sponge. People send me articles or podcasts and I'm constantly like, “Oh, God, I gotta listen to that,” you know? But writing a book I definitely had to just stop with I mean, for almost an entire year like, say to myself, “Do you? Do you have to consume this media? What is going to happen to you if you consume it?” that you need to get so focused. And it really, it really is a level of devotion and in some ways a sacrifice to write a book or to do a project that's kind of big, especially if you also see clients or do some kind of, you know, clinical work, which I imagine a lot of the people who listen to the show are doing both if they want to write a book, or not that everyone wants to, but if they do. And, yeah, I mean, it's such a process of kind of saying, “No, there's a lot of stuff I'm actually not going to do this year, because I'm doing this book.” Yeah. And then yeah, plenty of people the heart palpitations thing, plenty of people, when I tell them I turn my internet and phone off are like, but didn't that give you anxiety? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, of course it did. I'm addicted to being connected to people. I am also living in late stage capitalism with you. But um, you know, after a couple days, it's like, alright, and I also have a landline, I'll say that. I have a landline. So I did. You know, the other thing is like, you can turn your phone back on in, like, one minute. 

 

Lee: Yes. 

 

Laura: It's not like I was like, totally cut off from the world.

 

Lee: Yeah, that's, that's true. That is very true. It's not a forever removal. But I think though, you know, having read the book, it's clear to me just how concise and intentional, even deliberate, every single piece, every single chapter of this book is, and the way that you've structured it. So those first five chapters are really foundational, we really dive into almost theory, and then we move into, okay, now that we have a solid understanding of these concepts, how do you apply them? How do you use this to build your business in a way that is ethical, and that represents your values? I mean, the through line of the book is so clear. And I think that speaks to the fact that you really shut everything out and focused on your voice, your message, and how you wanted to communicate that. And as a result, there are some really interesting takes on concepts that I think people will be familiar with, but you introduce them in such a different way. One of the ones that comes to mind is when you're talking about the Why, which, again, is something, you know, it's kind of part of our culture, you know, what's your Why, start with Why. But you also look at the Shadow Why? And that's a concept that I was so intrigued by, I mean, there's so many highlights in my book in that chapter in particular, can you talk a little bit about what the Shadow Why is? And what we should be considering when we're exploring our own Shadow Why?

 

Laura: Yeah, so. So basically, yeah, most people are probably familiar with the why is, like all the altruistic reasons why you do this work, you know, the thing of like, like, what's your true purpose in the world, your calling, whatever. And the way that I frame the Shadow Whys, it's all the less altruistic reasons, it's all the ways that you're sort of trying to soothe your ego and soothe your wounds. And so an example would be, you know, I think this is, sadly, really common, a lot of people come into this work, because we ourselves have our need to heal, many, many healing practitioners come to this work, because we've survived abuse, or you know, maybe some trauma, maybe some things that you might just call wounding. And, and part of the experience of that can be made to be to feel bad. You can be made to feel or be told that you are insane, crazy, a bad person, you know, whole runs the gamut, all the ways that you can be maybe told that something about you is not okay. And to step into the role where you then say, I'm a healing practitioner and I'm kind of “well”, and often I'm putting that in air quotes “well enough” to help other people. It's a beautiful thing. But there can also be an underlying feeling like, I'm not actually good, I feel bad about myself. And I want to feel that I'm sane, I want to feel that I'm not crazy, I want to feel that I'm the one that has it all together. And so if we're stepping into this role, and that's, even though you have a really good reason for wanting to do the work, if that's also a part of it. One thing that can happen there is the you end up projecting on to the people you work with, that you are superior to them. They are the ones that have problems, and you do not. And this is just so common in the world of being a healing practioner. I mean, frankly, I think it's almost so common that it's like people maybe actually think that's appropriate, like, yeah, you know, and clients will even say things like that to me over the years that are kind of like well, you're the one who you know, and it's like, oh, let's slow down. I'm a human being. I have a lot of problems. You know, hopefully I have done enough healing work to support you, potential person who is idealizing me. But for healing practitioners, this is just a critical part of understanding the sort of shadowy reasons that we and the unconscious reasons that we are either wanting to be a healing practitioner or the way that we run our practice. This is another pieces, you know, for example, with the kind of surge of like online healing, sort of like gurus where it's like an Instagram healer or a Tik Tok healer or something where people are being revered, it's like, oh, my gosh, this person has 200,000 followers, you know, this is so exciting. People like all their stuff a lot, engage with a lot, repost it, there's many people who would love to have that because the part of their ego that saying, I'm bad, like really wants to be revered. But again, wanting to be revered – A: means that you're unconsciously inviting the people who you're working with to feed your ego. To kind of be unconsciously asking them to take care of your ego for you and your own wounding. And then the other piece is like, trying to become like a social media star, versus trying to build a healing practice where you are. Like, we basically just, you got to get clear on what you're doing and your practice in terms of, I want to say like, what's realistic? And I'm not saying it's not realistic to build a following online. But I think this is a part where it can get kind of complicated, of like, what are you trying to do? Like, do you need to have, I don't know, like, a client base of maybe 200 people cycling through your practice over the course of a year, let's just say, who, you know, pay you for your work. And that's, and that's how you are like surviving in the world, and you need them to be a good fit. Does that require being revered online? And it might not. And there might be a lot of energy getting sucked away from building a sustainable practice, where you find those few 100 people that are kind of cycling through, that energy is then going to seeking out being revered.

 

Lee: Yes. And I think most of if not all of us have that piece of our ego where we do want to be validated. We want, and more than just being validated, we want to be, you know, seen as worthy as important. And I think on some level, that is a basic human desire. But when it gets overblown, when we're always looking outside ourselves for approval, and that, you know, how many likes, how many follows, how many retweets am I getting, then then all of a sudden, that's where our ego can really take over. And then the work that we're doing becomes less about centering our clients agendas, and more about centering our own needs.

 

Laura: Yeah, and I think, you know, one thing I talk about is the difference of, from like, using, the people you work with, to receiving from them. Like, going into your work with this underlying sense of, I have to have the people I work with, like me, I'm unwilling to be disliked by them, or I need them to love me for me to be okay. That's, that's a territory where you're probably going to be committing ethics violations, frankly. But going into the work, and when somebody says to you, wow, you know, this is really helping me, thank you so much. Thank you for the work you're doing. And then receiving from that, like, Oh, it feels so good to be validated. It feels good to be you know, wanted, it feels good to be helpful. Like, I'm not saying we don't receive from the work, but I think there's just a really delicate line between receiving and, and yeah, like using.

 

Lee: I think you're exactly right. And I think too, there's a delicate line between owning your expertise, and coming across as someone who knows what they're doing and is safe to work with, versus using that sense of expertise as a way to have power over a person or a situation. And that can also be a funny line to dance as well.

 

Laura: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's so tricky, because that word expertise is like, yes, you're possibly an expert in what you do. Or yes, you're possibly a very, very skilled practitioner. But I feel there's something about maintaining contact with your own humanity. Like, you know, when we're humans, it's we're in contact with “I can't help everyone.” There will always be a case I don't understand. There will always be a place where I'm not the expert anymore. And yeah, I mean, I even I don't love using the term expert or specialist, well, specialist I will use, but like expert for myself, but I feel like there's you know, we're always sort of battling as healing practitioners with like, what we do and translating it into the world that we live in. So people want to say like, people will say to me, “Oh, yeah, we'll happy to talk to you because you're an expert on X,Y and Z.” And I'm like, well, am I gonna pause the whole conversation to be like, “You know, I don't love that term, because I think it kind of isn't, like, grounded, grounded in humanity.” You know, and so this is like a place where it's like, being a healing practitioner, I feel I hold certain values. And then yeah, translating them into sort of whatever environment I'm interacting with in the world where people are, they want you to be, they want to use the term expert to describe you.

 

Lee: I think this really speaks to a larger issue to of how we are reshaping the paradigm around business, and certainly around how we talk about what we do our marketing, our branding, all of those practices. And in a traditional, capitalistic approach, it's very much about I'm the expert, you pay me I tell you what to do, you follow what I say, or you're doing it wrong. And there is a lot of fear baked into that. In fact, I can't tell you the number of and I'm using air quotes here, “marketing experts” who talk about this fear and agitation cycle where you identify the problem, you list out all of the fears because of the problem, and then you agitate that in order to create more anxiety in the potential client so that they view you as the ultimate answer. And oh, it is just such a, in my view, unethical way of marketing, and yet, it's what we see. It's what we're taught. And I'm just wondering, like, what your thoughts are about this? 

 

Laura: Yeah. Have you heard of the term negging? 

 

Lee: No, I haven't.

 

Laura: Okay, so this is like a, it's like a pickup artist dating kind of thing. Where, um, any listeners that are female, socialized people that have ever experienced male socialized sort of – Well, anyway, you'll know what this is as soon as I explain it. It's where mostly men, cis men will gently criticize, like, do small criticisms of a woman that they're interested in, and then eventually, do one, like positive. So it's like, criticize, criticize, criticize, but I like you. And it's called negging. It's like, I think it's really maybe related to the term negative. But it's, yeah, so there's like gentle criticism, not, I shouldn’t say gentle, there's subtle criticisms, or maybe completely direct criticisms. And then, and then a pickup that's like, “Oh, but I like you.” And, yeah, I mean, I honestly feel like the marketing strategy you're describing is about as unethical as negging. And I'm just not into it. I'm not into inspiring fear in people. And the other thing I'll say about it is like, okay, like, there are plenty of people who need our services, we don't need to convince them that healing is useful, like, all we need to do is do is go in there and attune to people. And it's, I mean, this isn't like, you know, if we were living in a different time, maybe I wouldn't be a healing practitioner. But this is the time we're living in people are very, very wounded. We live in a very violent world. Most people have some kind of wounding or trauma. So all you need to do as a healing practitioner is identify who you want to work with, and speak to those people and speak to them with clarity, speak to them, you know, with kindness, like, make sure they have your contact information. That's a problem a lot of people do, they don't actually make it their websites are too complicated. But anyway, and, and people will come to work with you, you don't have to sort of trick people. But yeah, that's, uh, I mean that’s the other thing about that strategy is that it's really effective. Negging is effective, and so is marketing negging, that is very effective.

 

Lee: It is, and that's why it's taught. And so I think, if anything, it really does require a level of, well, certainly willingness and maybe also courage to go against the grain to do something that maybe isn't as easy or isn't as, I hesitate to even use the word successful, because that's not my definition of success, but it does work. But to do something different really requires, you know, going against the paradigm, thinking outside the box and doing something differently. And I think too in the book, when you talk about determining who you want to work with and defining your niche, you do so in a way that asks us to consider how systems of oppression affect how we even think about who we want to work with. And for me, like I literally had to stop reading and just kind of sit with that for a second and think, “Wow, how have these messages, kind of infiltrated even my own way of thinking about who I work with, who I support, how I teach other people,” because it is baked into our culture. I mean, we live and breathe it. And so if we adopt some of these practices, unknowingly, that's bound to happen. But then once your awareness is raised, you can't go back. You just can't go back. And so I'm curious, what do you think healers should be considering when we're looking at who we want to work with, in the context of being aware of these systems of oppression at play?

 

Laura: Yeah, well, one thing I'll say, and this maybe even ties back to what you're saying about how there's something about my book that's like, there's some, basically, truth is sort of the thing that grounds me the most. And I don't mean truth in that way that, like, there's an objective truth, but just sort of my truth. And where I go to with that is that there is like a somatic feeling in me of like, this is what's true. And in writing the book, every single sentence, it needed to feel true inside of me. And if it didn't, I, I was relentless, it needed to be changed. And so in terms of who you're going to work with, as a practitioner, I really encourage people to get in touch with a very, very deep sense of truth. And truth is not always what comes first. So like, for example, let's say you're in an argument with somebody in your life, you know, your first truth might be, well, that person did this thing. And so, you know, they blah, blah, blah, you know, and then your next layer of truth might be, okay, well, I'm hurt by this thing. And then your lower down might be, and I'm actually pretty sensitive to that thing, because of this other thing that happened in my life. And, you know, as you kind of get lower and lower, lower down, you know, the truth might just be like, everything that is happening here between us is, you know, nobody is necessarily to blame in this situation, but we are acting out, like, wounding that we've experienced and in our lives, and, you know, like, I don't necessarily have to like it, but whatever, kind of like a deeper spiritual truth. So, when it comes to asking yourself a question, like, “Who am I here to work with?” It gets real complicated, because we're living in a world that says things like, the most important people or the best people or the people who are the most worthy of healing, or, you know, X, Y & Z that are, and then just insert any privileged group. And yeah, and even I think there can be really complicated things in so many different sort of groupings of people around who is allowed to be sick, and how sick are they allowed to be? And what kinds of things are they allowed to seek healing around, I mean, this gets just can get so, so complicated. So in terms of your own truth, I think it's really good to just go layer by layer, like, identify what your truth is, knowing there's always a deeper place to go. And I think when we get down into a really, really deep spiritual truth, how do I want to say this? That, like, we're here to support each other in a way that is so far beyond identity. And, of course, in the practicality of how you actually deliver the work you're doing, it may be the case that based on who you are, and how you've lived in the world, you're not suited to work with somebody who you don't share the identity of. Like, for example, there are many queer people who do not want to see a straight clinician, and that's okay. But to be a straight clinician, and not want to work with queer people, or maybe not say that, but, but sort of like unconsciously hold that. Yeah, that's not a spiritually grounded place. That's not what I would consider, like a personal truth. Yeah, so basically, I just encourage people to like, dive down and to really consciously think through it. Like, again, you know, ultimately, when we get to the like, the most core truth, I think identity does, sort of doesn't matter anymore in a certain way. But we also live in a world where people are very, very oppressed based on their identity. So, you know, another thing I think, is, whatever your identities are, as the practitioner to think through those, like, am I mostly trying to work with people who are just like me? And why is that? And and do I have some kind of aversion to working with people who are different than me, or people who I hold privilege over? You know, and I also talked in the book about like, the answer to oppression, is not to make yourself feel better by working with people who are more oppressed than you. So this gets so complicated, and I just encourage people to read the chapter and I can kind of go on forever. But my final answer is like, find your truth. And that might not always be the first thing that comes to mind.

 

Lee: It is complicated. And you do such a lovely job of really exploring the nuance behind this in the book. So yes, and we will have links in the show notes so that you can get a copy of Laura's book because this is definitely I think, a must read for healers of all types, clinicians, coaches, you name it, like this book needs to be required reading. Interestingly, I have to say every time I would read it, I don't know what my brain was doing, but it kept wanting to translate healership into leadership. And I kept thinking of radical leadership and I had to correct myself. But then at the same time, I was like, but isn't this also leadership too? Isn't this about like, how we lead ourselves? And how we how we serve through leadership? Like I just, I think maybe my brain might have been on to something that there is a connection between how we heal ourselves, how we work to heal others, and then how we lead and support in the world too, so little tangent there. But, 

 

Laura: Yeah, that's a great I mean, I could go on forever about like leadership and having been sort of an anarchist in my past, and like, what do I think about hierarchies and leading. But yes, we can let another interview for another day and maybe another book.

 

Lee: We’ll save that for the next time you come back on the show. One thing I did want to talk about, though, was you mentioned that when it comes to kind of asking yourself questions, noticing how it feels in the body, so really taking a somatic approach. And that's something I really appreciate, I do in my own work for myself and with my clients. And yet also the number of clients, particularly those who have been socialized as women, the number of them who do not have a sense of how things feel in their body is almost staggering. It actually takes some some time for them to even articulate what they are noticing in their body, which I find fascinating and concerning all at the same time. It's one of the reasons to the why, in your book, you know, at the end of every chapter, you have some reflections, some writing opportunities. And also many of them are embodiment practices as well. And so I love that that was such a deliberate addition to that book. But I'd love to kind of know your take on first off why embodiment is such an important part of, we could say decision making, but really just existing. Like why that embodiment piece is so important and then why so many of us struggle to to bring that into our processes.

 

Laura: Yeah, so. So I think we struggle because we're wounded. And one of the things that happens when we experienced violence is that we disconnect from our bodies. And for people who are interested, I talk a bit more about this in my podcast, Inside Eyes. And one of the things that I talk about is that sexual violence, which is like we live in a global epidemic of sexual violence, really disempowers people, but part of how it just empowers people is it disembodies people. So in order to cope with the violence, people become numb to themselves, they don't feel their bodies anymore. And then from not feeling your body, that is a really disempowered place to live in. And then when the whole world is being affected by that there is a, like, mass experience of being disempowered. So I talk kind of more in depth in that show about it. But um, I think it extends beyond sexual violence, just you know, we're living in a world that really doesn't want us to be in our bodies, and does a lot to make that the case. I think that, you know, you mentioned people who are female socialized, but I think that this could probably also apply to people who are male socialized, that there's so much pressure for our bodies to look a certain way, or to act a certain way or to be in a certain level of ability. Without a lot of regard for how we feel like how do you feel when you eat certain foods, that's not important. What's important is that you restrict food or that you don't eat certain foods. How do you feel when you play a sport, or when you work out, that's not important. What's important is just that you're skinny and muscular, in just the right ways too you can't be, you know, like, get just be muscular a little bit in certain ways. You got to be you know, everything toned perfect. And these are just really body negative messages and, and not like, embodied, they're not embodied messages. So I think there's a myriad of things that make us disembodied. And why is that a problem? I mean, like I said, the disempowerment piece, but just really specifically as a healing practitioner, like so much of what we do is about getting connected to a truth. And if you can't feel in your body, it's very hard to be connected to your truth. And another thing I'll say, that I talked about in the book, is that, you know, if you can't really feel your body right now, it's okay. Like, don't don't stress, it's okay. It's a process that you build a relationship to. And I talk about it like, it's like learning a language. And, you know, like, if you practice I don't know, another language other than your your first language once every, I don't know, like three months, yeah, you're probably not going to become fluent in that language. But if you do it every day, even a little bit every day, in a year, you'll be able to have a conversation. And so I know it's really slow going, but I just think it's essential to get into the body. And I'll also say for a lot of people it's so physically uncomfortable. My advice to people if it's truly just like excruciating to get into your body is just to breathe, but you don't need to even focus yet on the breath. Like you can just focus on the sensation of the breath coming in right around your nose, like right if it's you know, if it's like if it feels okay to touch the outside of your hand and just feel the sensation of this is my outside of my hand, just you can basically there's always somewhere to start, you don't have to start with feeling into like, your heart, and your belly, which are the other you know, in terms of nervous system material, you have the most in your brain and then a very large concentration in your heart and a very large concentration in your belly. And this is a these are some of the places people really don't like feeling into and they have a lot of trauma. So you can always start small and just build, just build from there.

 

Lee: Yes. I love the idea actually just in general starting small and building from there, I think. I think that's such a gentle compassionate approach to all of the work we do. And that seems like actually a lovely place to end our conversation today but I don't want to let you go without first finding out where people can learn more about you and the work you're doing, because I know people are gonna want to connect with you after this conversation.

 

Laura: Yeah, so I mean, the main like social media place that I post is on Instagram and my name on there is @LauraMaeNorthrup, all one word. And then I send out like one or two emails a year on my “newsletter” you know if you are interested in learning with me or going to a retreat with me or anything like that, that would be the place where I try to get around to sending those emails out and I hope to be better at it but, and I say that just because with social media you won't always see the posts that I make but you know, obviously with a with an email, it goes straight to your inbox so you can find that at lauramaenorthrup.com.

 

Lee: Excellent. We will have links to all of those in the show notes as well as a link where people can get their very own copy of Radical Healership: How to Build a Values-Driven Healing Practice in a Profit-Driven World. I have my copy, right here. But Laura again, I just want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I have so enjoyed our conversation.

 

Laura: Yeah, thank you for having me, Lee.

 

Thank you so much, Laura, for coming on the Coach with Clarity Podcast, I really enjoyed our conversation. And I have to admit, in preparation for today's interview, I had a whole list of questions. And because we just got into the flow of the conversation, I think I asked maybe four of them, which just goes to show how much value and detail is inside the pages of her book, Radical Healership. So if you go to coachwithclarity.com/healership, you will get all of the information you need to get your copy of Laura's fantastic book. I can't recommend it highly enough. And, when you go to coachwithclarity.com/healership that will take you to the page where you can purchase Laura's book, and if you use the code CLARITY before June 1st, 2022 you will save 35% on your copy. So definitely head on over to coachwithclarity.com/healership, enter the code CLARITY and pick up your copy of Laura Mae Northrup's book, Radical Healership at 35% off. I want to thank you for joining me today for this episode of the Coach with Clarity Podcast and I will be right back in your feed next week with a brand new episode. So if you are not already following or subscribed to the show, be sure to do that now. No matter what podcast player you're using, there should be an option to either follow the show or subscribe to the show. And as always, every episode of the Coach with Clarity Podcast is absolutely free. So it is free to subscribe. I can't wait to continue our conversation next week. But until then, my name is Lee Chaix McDonough, reminding you to get out there and show the world what it means to be a Coach with Clarity.