Lee: You. Well, hello Mai-Kee. Welcome to the Coach with Clarity podcast. I am so excited to have you here.

Mai-Kee: Hey Lee, thanks so much for having me. Oh gosh, just before the recording I was like, this anticipation is like, wow, this countdown.

Lee: I know. We're using a program called Riverside to record and it does, it has this like “Five, four, three…” and it's like, “Oh, I feel the adrenaline rushing.” Yeah. So we're just going to take a breath and lean in because I'm really excited for our conversation today. You and I have been connected for a few years now. I've wanted to bring you on the show for quite some time. So I'm so happy that you're here today and that we're going to talk about all things related to sustainable visibility, which is such a juicy topic, especially for coaches. But before we dive in, let's start at the very beginning. I would love to know a little bit more about who you are and the work you do for the world.

Mai-Kee: Oh gosh. I'm always wondering where do I start with this question because there are so many different places that I could, but yes so like you said, I am all about sustainable visibility. I founded that movement back in 2020 and I'm sure we'll kind of delve into why that came about because there is actually a certain event that kind of led up to it. But yes, in a nutshell, what I do, I help socially conscious visionaries to really show up in a way where they can be seen at scale without compromising their capacity, their sense of safety or their values in the process.

Lee: Like you've just said words that make my heart sing. So we'll definitely be diving into all of that throughout our conversation. But I'm always fascinated by the entrepreneurial journey. So many of us have events and “Aha” moments that bring us to where we are today and I love kind of going back in time and exploring that. So how did you get to where you are now? What brought you to this point where you really are focusing on sustainable visibility?

Mai-Kee: Oh, so many meanders in this journey. Goodness. So I never once thought that I would be a business owner. Since I was a kid, I actually wanted to be a chef and then my parents quickly shut down that idea of being a chef. And then in my teenage years, my friends would collectively say at different times without any prompts, they’d always say, “Mai-Kee, you're such a good listener.” And that was always such an incredible compliment because that made me feel good knowing that they felt safe enough to come to me with their problems or to share something of an intimate nature and that I would be able to be their trusted person that they could go to. So that naturally prompted me to learn more about which kind of professions could, basically where I would listen for a living. And so my brain first went to psychology. So I studied psychology in university and I kid you not me, day one, day one of my university journey, every fiber of my being told me I made the wrong choice. And I believe it was a culmination of the fact that I chose a place based on where my parents wanted me to go. My mum wanted me to stay in London, and my dad wanted me to be within a certain ranking of UK universities. So I wanted to make everybody happy. And I thought, “Well, okay, I need to narrow down my choices. It needs to be under these rankings, needs to be in London, and they need to do psychology.” So that's what I did. And I chose a university that taught the subject in a very scientific research kind of way and very minimal on the humanistic, therapeutic side of things, which is where I wanted to go. So that was kind of a lesson in retrospect too, if you try to make everyone else happy, you probably won't be happy at the end of that. And there was a series of unfortunate events throughout that time which actually led me into a downward spiral of trigger warning for anyone who's listening. I will not give any unnecessary details, but just for base context, there was an incident of sexual abuse as well as developing an eating disorder. And both of those situations together were extremely toxic and took me into a very dark place in my life. And it was through those situations where I had to pick myself from the ground up and I really had to admit to myself that what got me there was really about adhering to everyone else's needs, but ignoring my own at all costs. And the major cost was this. And then I said to myself, I'm never going to let anybody else take my power away from me again. So I'm going to pause there because in case you had some stuff. I know that–

Lee: Yeah. I just got full body chills hearing that, actually. And first off, I want to thank you for sharing your experience with us because it really does model what I think many of us, especially those of us who've been conditioned as women, have experienced, which is silencing our own intuition, silencing our own needs in order to meet the needs and to please others. And our bodies know. Like what I heard you share was on that first day of university, your body knew, this is not right, this is not where you belong. And yet we don't feel safe or we don't feel like we have permission to let our bodies lead and to follow our own gut feelings on that. And it's a journey I think so many of us have been on and how empowering it is to hear you say, “I finally said enough. I finally decided I'm going to reclaim that for myself.” So I first off, just want to thank you for sharing that and also to let people know this is sadly common. So if you have had this experience too, you are not alone.

Mai-Kee: 100%. And it was one of those lessons that I hope is not necessary for all women out there, all people out there, to be honest with you. But it was a part of my journey and because I felt like I reached rock bottom by then. And when I just came to that point, I thought, “You know what, I'm going to change things now.” And then I started taking really good care of my health and it was actually through all of my research on healthy recipes and eating in certain quantities, all of that good stuff, right, that did actually spiral me into an eating disorder because it kind of went the other extreme. And then my now partner was there for me at the time during an outburst and she was there just holding space for me and just allowed me to be. And by her holding that space in silence, that really showed me the power of space holding for someone without interjecting, without judgment, without a sense of rejection. And it's thanks to her that she's really helped me come out of that space. And so I can't look at a packet of Fox’s Creams biscuits the same way anymore. That is what led to that outburst. But yeah, so I actually started getting targeted for Facebook ads because I was researching about so much health stuff and it actually led me to this program that was all about health and wellness coaching. So that was actually my first experience ever in coaching and I thought it was a good idea at the time to sign up for this coaching certification during my final year of university. Probably not the best timing, but– 

Lee: A bold choice.

Mai-Kee: Yes! A bold choice but look where it led me. So I got certified and I was a classic coach that was great at coaching and had no idea how to run a business. So I spent several years experimenting whilst holding down multiple part time jobs as a barista. Then I started volunteering at events in London and then actually wound up getting hired as an events manager. And that was really, really cool to kind of see on the inside of what it's like to run big events and just kind of like organizing everything. And then I actually had several opportunities to be trained by certain mentors. My first mentor was all about public speaking, so that was very early on in my journey. Then I started networking a lot and I was under the wing of another mentor who wound up hiring me because he actually saw my potential and I just wasn't ready to venture out on my own quite yet. So he took me under his wing because he was a solopreneur, but he was the type of person who went viral very quickly and he just didn't have the internal infrastructures to support that growth. So I helped him build it from the inside out and I picked up a plethora of different skills and then slowly but surely our versions of success really started to diverge. To him it meant doing anything and everything at all costs, including relationships. And to me that was not a sacrifice I was willing to make. So we had this mutual agreement to part ways and that was on June 1st, 2018. And I know specifically because I had this little painting thingy made up for that. And actually at the time of this recording we are just before, a few days before June 1st which would have reached my five year milestone of supporting myself full time. Because from that day, again I picked up a lot of skills, I became a copywriter and I really leveraged my coaching skills to aid my copywriting. Then I just elevated into being a strategist, then I really got into podcast guesting. So even though I've shifted what my offerings have been or which services I offer, the connection thread between each and every one of them was that I always help my clients express their truest version of their voice– 

Lee: Yes. I see that through line– 

Mai-Kee: Whether it was through the written word.

Lee: Yeah, I see that through line in your work, knowing you for a few years now. And what I love most about your story is that I suspect in the moment and correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect in the moment there were times where it felt like “Why am I doing this? What is happening? This feels so disorienting and so confusing.” But then we look back and we see how the dots connect and how every experience, every relationship brought you to where you are now and really shaped your perspective on how we show up, how we use our voice and how we do so in a manner that serves and supports us and doesn't compromise sustainability.

Mai-Kee: Yes. And sometimes you need to learn what you don't love in order to know what you want to do. 

Lee: Oh yes.

Mai-Kee: You know, like which things are not a cost that you're willing to take on. And to me my cost is relationships, I will not compromise that. I will not compromise my mental/physical health which have been under some challenges over the last couple of years and it's just things that are non-negotiable. And so when I speak about sustainable visibility, it's about showing up in a way that supports you as well as the people you are trying to reach and really being an embodied leader, someone who really walks their talk.

Lee : Yes. And I'd love to kind of dig into the moments or the experiences that really pointed you in the direction of sustainable visibility. And I think you may have hinted at it earlier when you mentioned something around 2020 and I'd love to know more about that if you're open to speaking around it.

Mai-Kee: Yes, of course, ask away.

Lee: Tell me a little more about well, to the extent you'd like, what happened and then also how that then influenced your decision to really move into this arena of sustainable visibility.

Mai-Kee: Yes. All right, so I'm going to rewind slightly back to 2019 first for a cautionary tale. It is not a tale of inspiration like many people think it is. It's not a tale of inspiration. It's a tale of caution. But it is again, it's one of those dots that I look back in retrospect that's led me to where I am today. So when I was really starting to make my rounds as a copywriter, I still felt like I needed to place myself out there more because everybody says that you need to do that. Right? And so all of my mentors at the time, they told me, “Mai-Kee, you should guest on more podcasts.” And I was like, “Okay.” And then they didn't exactly give me any guidance after that. They just told me like, “Oh yeah, just do that.” And I'm like, “Okay, well, I'm a smart girl. I'm going to figure it out myself.” So I did. And so I'm someone who really thrives well under challenges, especially when it's a self challenge. I don't personally like competing against other people unless it's through Mario Kart, but other than that, I love self challenges. So I challenged myself to pitch to 101 podcasters personally in 30 days.

Lee: Wow. Yes, I'm already blown away.

Mai-Kee: Yes.

Lee: And the fact that this is a cautionary tale, I'm wondering where this is heading.

Mai-Kee: So it first started off as a tale of inspiration because of course, that is a huge volume, right? And I received a 33% booking rate, which is more than triple of your standard PR industry booking rate. And so, of course, there's important context that needs to be applied there as well. So it's not just kind of like a sweeping across generalization, but that was my personal result. And then I really placed myself on the map because of the sudden influx of interviews. And suddenly people were seeing me everywhere. And I became the go to person to teach how to guest on podcasts. And what I loved is that I asked each and every podcaster who said yes to me, “What made you say yes?” And then they told me I distilled all of their answers together. And it co created the framework that I still teach today in my DIY Workshop series, as well as what I apply directly for my one on one clients. And the thing is when I, because that that was back in 2019, so it's been nearly four years since then because that was back in the summer. But what happened in 2020 and how this all comes together, of course, that challenge, while it was helpful at the time, it was by no means sustainable, because I didn't expect so many people to say yes, which is probably why I thought it was okay to pitch that many, like, just to kind of get the ball rolling, so to speak. But I didn't expect so many yeses. So I thought, “Oh crap, I don't have this much time.”

Lee: “What have I done!”

Mai-Kee: Exactly. What have I done? What a quality problem to have.

Lee: Yes, but even good problems can be problematic. 

Mai-Kee: Exactly.

And so, yeah, I can see how with such an exceptional response rate, which is something to be applauded, it does then make you realize, “Oh no, now I've actually got to do these 30 plus podcasts.”

Mai-Kee: Exactly. And that was in the space of like two months. So you can imagine how many interviews were happening across two months.

Lee: Yeah. So how then did that experience? It sounds like it both taught you quite a bit around capacity and how much you can and want to do, but it also then created the structure, the framework for what you now teach. So even amidst a very, what I'm sure was an overwhelming period, there was some real creation that came out of it.

Mai-Kee: Yes, 100%. And it absolutely taught me so much about capacity and why I still personally lean on podcast guesting as my number one way to be visible because it really meets so many of my needs. So, for example, I'm an introvert, so I love one on one conversations. I can do public speaking, it's not my forte. I am well trained in it and I can do it. But it's just because it's in front of a lot of people and because I'm also a highly sensitive person. I'm also an empath, so I pick up a lot of sensory input and it can easily get very overwhelming for me. So I love that with podcast interviews, it's a one on one conversation when you record it, but then when you publish it, it's seen at scale. Right? And it lives on the internet forever, which is incredible. You can always relige these interviews themselves and you can also develop relationships with the host and the audience members who really resonate with the interviews. So I really love that. But where it really started to take a turn and why I started talking about sustainable visibility so much is when again, I hired yet another mentor and they told me, “Just put yourself out there, put yourself out there.” Right? So I did. And because now when I look back in retrospect, they were actually projecting their own actions that they've done that's led them to where they are without acknowledging their proximity to privilege and their access to resources that would have significantly contributed to the results they had. Right?

Lee: Yes. And so I can imagine that then puts you in a very complicated situation.

Mai-Kee: Yes.

Lee: Because they're telling you to do things based on their own privilege and perspective, assuming that you have access to those things that you may or may not. And so now you're trying to follow someone else's philosophy, someone else's framework, without having access to the same resources. And so you're already starting behind.

Mai-Kee: Exactly. And I don't think they were even aware of how their privilege impacted their results either because I think people generally want to credit their own experience, their own merit as to how they got results and not things that they've been equipped with without them realizing. And what happened was that I followed their advice. And the thing is, when you are unstrategic with who you are showing up in front of that can really put you in a potentially dangerous or vulnerable position. And that was exactly what happened to me because I shared the intimate part of my story that I shared earlier, probably with a bit more detail because back then I didn't discern the details as much. And then I received a really sexually charged inappropriate DM soon after and it reopened my trauma wound from when I was a teenager. So it really made me want to shut down everything, hide all of that stuff. And that showed me how harmful the narrative can be to put yourself out there at all costs and to just be consistent. Because not everybody, again, has that proximity to privilege. Not everybody has an extensive support network to help them if something comes up. Not everybody has access to resources in a way where they can take time off, which can obviously impact their businesses and things like that. And that's when I really started to untangle all of these things and take into account the power of projection and how it's used way too much without realizing when it comes to people just tooting this advice about visibility. And so that's why my Sustainable Visibility movement was born that very year when I was able to come out of that situation and really start having conversations of what's important for us to be visible, but in a way that really honors us as people.

Lee: Yet another example of how you have been able to take an experience that was quite painful, even traumatic, do your own work around it and then allow that to inform and even inspire now how you serve your people. So again, I just want to acknowledge that and acknowledge that level of resilience as well. And I'd also love to really dive even deeper into what you consider to be the core pillars of sustainable visibility, understanding that that may look different for different people. But when we're talking about this concept, what are some key elements that people need to know around sustainable visibility?

Mai-Kee: Yes, so much. Oh gosh, where do I even start? So the first thing that comes to mind is that sustainable visibility is all about safety first and strategy second. Because as you and I both know, because we actually met through our mutual friend and mentor Lisa Kuzman in her READY! program where we were certified as trauma sensitive coaches. And it was through that training when Lisa broke down the three key areas of the brain. I'm not even going to use the terminology, I'm just going to go front, middle and back just to keep it simple.

Lee: Fair.

Mai-Kee: Yes. So the back is our survival area of our brain, the middle is our emotional processing and our front is our logical reasoning. And when we don't feel safe, which is very different from being uncomfortable by the way, when we don't feel safe, the logical reasoning and our emotional processing centers of our brain actually shut down. And so when we are operating from a sense of survival, we're unable to articulate our ideas and ourselves and our stories as well as we could had we had access to those two other areas which can really reach further and go deeper. Right? And so that is why my whole approach is really about safety first, really understanding what that means to you because that is so personal. It's nothing that you need to justify to anybody else. It's something for you to acknowledge about what you need in order to feel safe. And I think it's really important to discern who you are associating with, who you are being in front of, and just like who you're choosing to collaborate with as a result of being visible.

Lee: I love that you are starting with safety. And there's also the suggestion in there that each one of us can determine our own boundaries when it comes to safety. And when we're talking about safety, sometimes not often, but maybe sometimes with podcasting it has to do with physical safety. But I think really we're talking more about emotional and psychological safety and understanding the limits around what we're willing to share, what we want to make available for public consumption versus what is private and what we share only with close friends, family, colleagues, if we share it at all. And so it sounds then like it's incumbent upon each one of us to do our own work and understand, “Where are my boundaries around this? How can I establish them? how might I want to flex them if I'm feeling called to do so? And then also how do I maintain them when someone challenges them, when someone does start to ask a question or take the conversation down a path where I'm not willing to go?” And so that safety piece really does require a lot of personal work so that we can then make our boundaries and our needs known to the people around us.

Mai-Kee: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Lee: So in addition to safety, what are some other things we should be considering when it comes to sustainable visibility?

Mai-Kee: Okay, one of my favorite topics, it is capacity. Very often we have so much capabilities, but we can't always showcase them if our capacity is not accounted for. So I have a very brief model. I call them it's just the three A's and the metaphor or analogy–I always get those mixed up like which one it is, but it doesn't matter. But say for example, you're meeting a friend in another country. So if I planned to meet my friend in Hong Kong, let me ask you, Lee, if I told her like, “Hey, my flight is 14 hours.” Would I tell her I'm going to be there in 14 hours? Yes or no?

Lee: No, right?

Mai-Kee: Exactly. And there's a reason why I'm asking this question. Let me ask you a further question. Why not 14 hours? Why is there more time that I need to take into account? What do I need to focus on?

Lee: Yes. So I would say if the flight itself is 14 hours, we also need to factor in the time spent at the airport, dealing with customs, getting your luggage. We need to think about travel time to and from the airport. There are all sorts of things that go into that journey apart from the actual time you're in the plane.

Mai-Kee: Yes. This right here, right. This is why we cannot equate the actual travel time on the plane to the amount of time it's going to take for us to get there. So this is what I mean. When people start becoming more and more visible and trying out various strategies whether it's public speaking, whether it's podcast guesting, writing a blog, producing their own podcast, sending out email newsletters: however they are, whichever methodology they are using to be visible, they often only factor in the quote unquote plane time and not everything that happens before and after. I mean, for example, some of us get jet lag. I get really bad jet lag. And so even when I've done the flights, I'm not ready to meet my friends straight away. I need some downtime to recover, to put on a face mask, to get a good night's sleep and all of that. Right? But here's the problem, again, people only focus on the middle part. So how this relates back to my three A's that will help break this down a bit more. So A number one is anticipation. This is everything that you need to have in place and plan before you do the thing. 

Lee: Yes, anticipation, I love that. 

Mai-Kee: Then A number two is the action.

Lee: Okay. Number two. Action. 

Mai-Kee: Number two is the action and this is the doing of the thing. So using the context of visibility here, this is doing the podcast interview. So you and I are on one right now. We've allocated about an hour or so. So that's the action. And then the third A is the aftermath. It's everything that is required to do afterwards. Just like how you'd pick up your luggage or you would go take a taxi to your hotel. It's the same when it comes to the kind of, it's almost like the calm down of the visibility strategy, because you may feel exhausted after doing something, especially if it takes a lot out of you. And so you need to factor in capacity for the aftermath, like what do you need to do afterwards? So, for example, for a podcast interview, I would need to ask you about the details of when the episode is likely to go live and promotional materials, all of that good stuff. So that way I've basically done the whole A to Z journey of this strategy alone. But the reason why people can often get burnt out is because they overbook themselves. They over commit themselves because they've only taken into account the action, but not the anticipation or aftermath.

Lee: That is such a powerful way of viewing how we manage time as part of capacity. And it really speaks to something I've been thinking about for a while now around productivity culture and how that supports patriarchal standards. And I'll be honest with you, when I started my own business, I still had entrenched in my mind that if I were a real business owner running a real business, I would be working 40 hours a week. It's that kind of standard, at least in America or in Western civilization, it's the 40 hour work week. And what I found as I began coaching and holding space for people, that I would be completely spent maybe after 20 hours of coaching a week. And I really got on myself about “You're just lazy, you can't hack it. What's wrong with you?” And what your framework offers is not just the suggestion, like the necessity of building in that anticipation and that aftermath time, especially when you're doing work that taxes you, whether it's being visible, whether it's coaching. Holding space for people requires an extraordinary amount of energy. And that anticipation and aftermath time needs to be factored into your overall day, your overall work week. So it's really liberating to think, “Okay, if I need some downtime after a particularly challenging session or after going on a podcast interview and it being particularly in depth.” That's work. That counts as part of the process. And I just think that's such a lovely permission to give people as they're thinking about how they spend their time, how they spend their day, and linking it to capacity, I think is brilliant.

Mai-Kee: Thank you. Yeah, it's just one of those things that often gets missed. And I think that it gets spoken about the most when it comes to attending an event or speaking at an event, for example, because you would need to, you know, the compensation for being a public speaker, for example, is that you would need to have flights and things taken into account, your downtime and allocating capacity to speak to various people who are interested in coming up to you after your talk, all of that stuff. But I feel like that same consideration that we have for ourselves if we were going to be a public speaker or to attend an event also needs to be kind of transferred to pretty much any visibility strategy because it does take things up for us, like regardless of whether it's our zone of genius or whether it's our zone of competence or excellence or incompetence, the four different zones that I got from Gay Hendrix The Big Leap, I believe that book is. And yeah, so it just needs to have that transference of consideration for our capacity, whatever we are doing.

Lee: Yes. So as we kind of round the corner into the end of our interview, there is one question that I wanted to make sure we covered. Because I suspect people who are listening to our conversation right now are really connecting with your approach to sustainable visibility and they want to be more intentional around their visibility but maybe aren't exactly sure where to start. What guidance might you offer someone who's just beginning down this path of sustainable visibility?

Mai-Kee: Yes, so I'm glad that you asked this question because it was actually a third element, but it weaves beautifully into your question. So it's a win win feed two birds with one scone is what I like to say.

Lee: Perfect.

Mai-Kee: Yeah. So for anyone who would like to get started, I recommend doing this exercise that is going to invite you to reflect back on which visibility strategies you have tried already and then seize them through these two lenses. They are two E's. The first E is how effective was this for my business to do this strategy? And the second E is how energetically efficient was it for me to do this strategy?

Lee: I love that you have clarified not just efficient, but energetically efficient. I think that is such an important distinction. Can you talk a little more about that?

Mai-Kee: Yes, 100%. Because the problem is, with traditional visibility advice, it's very much about what's effective for your business, right? But the reason why it's unsustainable a lot of the time is because we don't factor in what was efficient for us to do. So this is really about playing to your strengths and playing to the things that you are naturally good at or the parts of you that you're looking to improve upon. So, for example, I am a natural verbal processor. I love connecting one on one. So that's why podcast guesting for me is so efficient because it meets several needs that come very naturally to me. And what I would love to practice on, for example, is my writing, because I do love writing, but not in a blog context, for example. But it's a muscle that I'm willing to start strengthening. And the thing is, though, they each have their different levels of effectiveness for what it means for my business, whether it's generating new leads or whether it's nurturing people who are already in my community to a point where they're interested in working with me further. So it's really about running through your strategies, through both of these lenses and then you can actually start assessing what's worth it for you right now, in this season, when you only have X amount of capacity, what strategies can you lean on which have historically led to good results in your business and have also nurtured you as a human because it plays to your strengths?

Lee: I love that I'm sitting here just blown away by some of the frameworks that you've been able to create, like the three A's, the two E's. I mean, you've got such a gift for that, Mai-Kee. I have no doubt that those of us listening to our conversation today are going to want to connect with you and to learn more about you and the work you do. So where is the best place for someone to find you? Where should we connect with you?

Mai-Kee: Okay, so there are a couple places that you can find me on the Internet, but if you would like further access to internal insights just like this. I do have an email newsletter called Inside Insights and it is where I do share the behind the scenes of what it's like to unsubscribe from urgency culture, what it's like to navigate leadership in real time, and what it's like to actually practice sustainable visibility in my business. I'm very open with my email list because to me, there is a layer of safety that I have with them. So just like earlier on, when I was sharing how important it is to discern who or rather sorry, let me rechap that. So earlier when I was mentioning about discerning what you say and who it's in front of and with my email list, because they've entrusted me with their name and their email address, to me, that gives me like, “Okay, because they have shown a form of commitment. Here's how I can give back to them by being open with things I wouldn't just say out there on the Internet.” I'm actually thinking of creating a private podcast about my internal musings because those are very intimate and in my opinion, not everybody gets access to that. They shouldn't just get access to that. It's not the same information that happens on the inside and the outside. To me, they need to be different and it's really about honoring the different levels of commitment. So I've really committed to being open with my email subscribers and they've been incredible community members for me. And you can, of course, my newsletter is free, so if you're interested in that, you can go to www.maikeetsang.com/insideinsights.

Lee: Excellent. We will have a link to that in the Show notes, so you can definitely check the show notes for that. I'll also link to an interview I did with our mutual colleague Lisa Kuzman, all about trauma sensitive coaching because that really was where Mai-Kee and I first connected. And in addition to it being a wonderful program, I'm just so grateful for the friendships that I've made from it, including yours. 

Mai-Kee: Same!

Lee: Mai-Kee, thank you so much. Thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast today.

Mai-Kee: Thank you, Lee, you've been asking such incredibly insightful questions, and I really hope that even if just one pillar or one gem of wisdom that every single person who's tuned in this far can walk away with today. So thank you.

Lee: Thank you.

Lee: Many thanks to Mai-Kee for being my guest on the Coach with Clarity podcast and for sharing your wisdom and your experiences with us. I don't know about you, I had several moments during this conversation where you could probably see the proverbial light bulb light up over my head, especially when she was talking about the three A's of anticipation, action and aftermath. That's going to stay with me for a while, especially as I complete my own mid-year review. There's a reason why we just rebroadcast that episode all about conducting your mid-year review. So you can just hop back in episode or two to find that, but one of the things I'm going to be focusing on is my use of time, how I schedule my sessions, my meetings, my podcast interviews, and building in more space around those things that I enjoy, but do have a pretty significant energetic expense. So that was my takeaway moment from my conversation with Mai-Kee, I would love to know what really stood out for you. So come find me. I'm over on Instagram and Tiktok @CoachWithClarity, and let me know what your biggest takeaway is from this conversation. And I'm sure Mai-Kee would love to know your takeaways as well, you can find links to her website, to her social media platforms and to her newsletter in the show notes. That is it for me this week, my friend. I will be back in your feed very soon with another episode of the Coach with Clarity podcast. And until then My name is Lee Chaix McDonough reminding you to get out there and show the world what it means to be a Coach with Clarity.